In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with Jason Croft to explore how books and podcasts can create meaningful business connections. We discuss the misconception that content creation requires extensive resources, focusing instead on how minor, deliberate steps can establish expertise and build relationships with potential clients and partners.
I learn about the value of intangible marketing benefits through Jason's experience with clients who achieved significant results despite modest audience numbers. He shares a case study where a client's small podcast following led to valuable business relationships, demonstrating how content can be an effective networking tool beyond traditional metrics.
We examine the importance of maintaining long-term connections with your audience, illustrated by a cautionary tale of a realtor who lost business by neglecting his email list. This highlights why success in content marketing often depends more on relationship-building than immediate, measurable outcomes.
Our conversation concludes with practical strategies for improving communication skills and integrating podcasting into business development.
SHOW HIGHLIGHTS
I discuss how books and podcasts can be powerful tools for business growth, focusing on creating meaningful interactions rather than just producing content.
Jason Croft and I explore the value of intangible marketing metrics, highlighting how untrackable interactions can lead to significant business benefits.
We share a case study where a modest podcast audience was leveraged into new client relationships, emphasizing content as a networking and referral tool.
The episode covers the importance of maintaining connections over time, with anecdotes about missed opportunities from neglecting audience engagement.
We talk about the necessity of being seen as an expert in your field, whether through writing a book or hosting a podcast, to enhance credibility and visibility.
Jason and I discuss integrating new practices like podcasting and interviewing into business strategies to improve communication and marketing efforts.
We highlight the significance of orchestrating your message across various platforms to boost business presence and credibility.
The episode stresses the importance of intentionality in content creation, advising against building large-scale content machines without clear business goals.
We discuss the role of podcasts and books as significant credibility boosters, each offering unique advantages in marketing.
Finally, I encourage listeners to explore additional resources and stay engaged with the show, underscoring the value of building lasting business relationships through content.
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Jason Croft:
LinkedIn: Jason Croft
Website: Media Leads Co
TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)
Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today joined by Jason Croft. Jason, how are you doing?
Jason: Doing great, so glad to be here.
Stuart: I'm excited too. So this is going to be an interesting episode. We were introduced through a mutual connection on LinkedIn a couple of weeks ago and had a great conversation. We're coming to it from different perspectives different businesses. Well, not different perspectives, different businesses, but a similar perspective in the tool isn't necessarily the thing. The tool is the thing to achieve the thing. So, with that slightly random introduction, why don't you give the audience a background on what you and the company do over there?
Jason: Yeah. So the specialty right now at Media Leads is we're helping coaches, consultants, specifically and exactly what you're talking about, in a different way than most people are doing. It, Just like your books are a tool, they're a mechanism right To have that first contact and used as a sales tool instead of what's typically thought of as the sort of content marketing piece. People think podcast video, oh yeah, just put out stuff for years and eventually somebody will be interested. And all the promises of content marketing, of the long-term effects they're real and they're true. I just prefer for myself and my clients to have that also immediate benefit.
So, instead of just putting out content and hoping something happens, let's make this beneficial from episode one of your show, right Of the launch. So who are you talking to? Let's bring in your ideal clients to talk to. Let's bring in strategic partners. Let's make sure there's some solo content so that if one person listens, they'd know exactly what you do, how you help people, why they should reach out and how they can do so. And it's a piece that's missed in so many areas to use this as a business building tool, because if you're paying somebody to help you or to do it for you, there's a cost, dollar amount. If you're doing it yourself, there's a giant time, cost and effort and you need to make sure that it's worth it from the beginning or you just won't stick with it.
Stuart: Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I think people, a lot of the industry, on both of our sides, are filled with organizations that come from the discipline. So from our perspective, it's filled with a lot of publishers and from your perspective, I'm sure it's filled with a lot of producers and audio-based people who come from the content world. And our approach, collectively and individually, of thinking about the tool isn't the product, isn't the tool, the conversation, the opportunity. The tool allows that to be delivered, the thing to be delivered, but layer on top of it the reason for doing it, the job of work, the outcome-focused attention, so that it actually makes sense. So you're not just doing it for the sake of doing it. It's not a build it and they will come, type thing. It's intentionality around it. Is that a conversation that you find yourself having to educate people on, or do people come to you because they know your approach is more focused on that?
Jason: It's usually that education process. Still, at this point, they've heard the word podcast and that's why I talk with you, know, my ideal client, for a number of reasons. But in that coaching space and consulting space, because it's already been in their mind right, I know I should do that, personal branding stuff, right, those are the the key words you usually hear. They're like I know I should do it, I probably should do a podcast, but they don't have those specifics that will kind of push them over to the edge to make it a priority in their business. Instead, it's a yeah, I could see kind of how that would help or would be enjoyable or something else. What I help them see is the business specifics. Here's the ROI behind it.
Right, when you use this as the one marketing activity you have to deal with in terms of, instead of all these vast things, you make it the hub of everything else you're doing, it becomes a little easier and it becomes more. It becomes more valuable to. Easier to wrap your head around, because sort of, steer people to all your marketing, but easier to wrap your head around. And oh, okay, I need to focus on conversations. Oh, wow, okay, I'm a coach, that's what I do well, anyway, that's what I know moves the world. For me are conversations, so I can just be more intentional about those, have those and then that's. You know, that spits out to your social content, your all of these other things, and you make that your hub. It just seems a little less daunting, this whole marketing thing that I have to do in addition to running a business.
Stuart: I think that's a great point, that daunting element of making it simple and straightforward and an easy first step to take. If you were to say to someone that they either had to write the next great American novel or the Bible on a particular subject. Or if you said to someone that they had to recreate NPR and all of the machinations that go around a content machine, or Red Bull, look at Red Bull as an organization and the kind of media giant that is completely overwhelming and I think it does such a disservice to people where they compare themselves to those organizations. It's a lot more freeing to think about the job of work of this thing that we're creating, whether it's a podcast or a book, is to just engage people and take that first step. It's not to entertain them. We're not charging for it. We're not. This is the, the mechanism to get in conversation about the thing that I can help. So I think to your point.
Jason: It really takes the pressure off and helps them take that first step I was just gonna say too, to not only on the mechanism itself, but also when you can really zoom in again, both on a book aspect or a show aspect, and realize that most of us, you know three more clients. Hey, that's huge, you know. And and it's so easy because we're human, because we're just wired this way, it's so easy to go like, oh, only a thousand people saw my post, Like are you kidding me? A thousand people, you need three, you know. So it's safety, writing a book. You don't need an Amazon bestseller, Wall Street Journal bestseller to get three. You need to write this very specific book your specific type of client needs. Put that in front of them physically, digitally, you know, hand it to them. Do that for a hundred people.
You're going to find three and it's even I have to constantly remind myself like, okay, I'm looking for one person this month, right, one part, yeah, and it just.
Stuart: I think that helps take the pressure off as well yeah, yeah, it's a great point, the whole kind of anti-metrics problem. I was actually so and we talked before we do a couple of podcasts in there. For some people it's definitely not what we specialize in at all, but one of those clients was we were talking last week because they were looking for stats from spotify and apple music on apple podcasts, on their download numbers, and I find myself having a conversation because they've changed staff a couple of times. I had a conversation saying that's fine, we can share those numbers. But just to reiterate a point that we made at the beginning, we don't care about those numbers like we collectively don't care about those the beginning. We don't care about those numbers Like we collectively don't care about those numbers.
You agreed, you don't care about those numbers because the job of work was to have something to send an email out about, to give to the sales teams to say, oh, we just did a podcast with John Smith talking about such and such in the oil and gas industry. Maybe think of you, by the way, if you've got time next week's, jump on a call. The whole purpose of what it's trying to do. So, to your point, the numbers that, for the majority of people listening. We're talking about trying to start conversations with single low double digit numbers of people each month. It's not getting to 100 000 downloads or going viral on something, whatever that means.
Jason: Yeah, exactly.
Stuart: Yeah, it's that conversation bridging the gap between expectations and the real job of work. I think sometimes and again talking from the book perspective sometimes we see that it takes 10 units of energy for people to do anything. And if they put all 10 units into the project, then they get to the end of the line, the show's recorded or the book's written and it's oh, thank goodness for that, I don't have to do anything else or I don't have energy to do anything else. How much of a expectation setting or bridging conversation is it to say, okay, well, you can just do it and press live and then it will sit there, but that's not really going to move the I needed to save two units of energy to do this next step. How challenging is it? Or built into the system? Is it to encourage people to do that bit?
Jason: It's interesting to put it that way my focus for myself and my clients is certainly on that first bit, meaning it's all about that conversation, it's 90% about that conversation. I think the eight bits and two bits. I think that's a good amount to talk about, though, because of course, you've got this asset you've just created. That will grow over time, and then why wouldn't you put it out there? And I certainly hey, here's what I do here. You know, when I talk to a client, they've got a show and I'm putting you know all the all that's the promotional stuff together for him. Here's the guest follow-up, here's we're having that conversation from the very beginning, right. And here's the system in place and monitoring that along the way as they, as they make their show. I certainly put more emphasis on that. First, that the eight bits, right, you?
know, getting that in there right because if you do it the way I talk about doing it, where you're talking to your ideal clients, your strategic partners, you could throw that episode the trash. And it was still beneficial, right? Of course you wouldn't, why would you? And it's more beneficial, you know, to have it out there. For all those reasons, I know you mean.
Stuart: But doing it right would you, and it's more beneficial to have it out there. For all those reasons. I know what you mean. But doing it right from the start means it's more effective. The end product was kind of fit for purpose right from the beginning, rather than we did something and now need to do something with it. It's now we're doing this thing for a particular reason.
Jason: At the same time. My weakest point in show creation is growing a big, massive audience is having that distribution out there. I'm sure part of that has to do with where I put those units right. I absolutely agree with someone to put way more time on the marketing side of it than the creation. If it's solo, if it's anything, I haven't gone that route yet, know. So I don't speak as though you know. Here's what to do with it, you know, and I haven't grown an audience of millions either.
Stuart: Yeah, yeah, but to the point you made before, it's because it's not necessary, like there's a certain the whole kind of minimum effective dose approach of. I think that's why we resonated when we talked about it. So the eight units that sticking with the eight in the two, at some point this analogy is going to collapse, but it's working at the moment. So the eight that you put into it, at least it's coming from the perspective of knowing that it's for a particular, there's a marketing outcome, there's a reason for doing it. So it's not like the npr example of their nine and a half units of effort into the creation and all of the.
I was watching a do you know david cross, the comedian. He was in arrested development so he's got a podcast that I saw on youtube and it's part of a network called head gum and obviously because I clicked on one of the videos and I see the algorithm suggesting lots of other ones, so you can see the head gum network of podcasts, because they look very similar, the backdrops vary the same and the fonts vary the same, even though they move from show to show and reading between the lines, I think they rent space in like LA and New York and then they get all the hosts in over a two-week period and record everything and stack it and do it that way around. But he was saying that they there are maybe 25, 30 episodes in now and he was joking with someone else saying oh well, obviously people have been telling me to do this for years, but you don't make any, there's no money. They don't make any money in this but it gets the audience. When I now do a show in new york, there's some of this audience now know about, because otherwise when I was doing the show in new york, there's a whole swathe of people who wouldn't necessarily see the marketing for that show. So it was interesting looking at it from our perspective because he was talking about it as if he'd been convinced to do the podcast by a traditional network where advertising, revenue and the hook and the traditional setup was the thing.
But 30 shows in he was realizing that. I know the size of the audience doesn't matter. This is never going to be an npr equivalent it. But the thousand people who are my fans and now get to hear when I'm saying I'm doing a show in new york next week, so that balance I think where, on the book side of things as well. We put more emphasis on the two than the eight, but what I liked about our conversation is that you come to the eight, but still with the purpose of the two, if, if, anyone's following along with those numbers yeah, hopefully we've cut.
Jason: There's like a beautiful mind thing going on with everybody making that calculation right now and they're figuring it out, it's all right, I think because we're both from the job, of work perspective. Absolutely. And David Cross's example you know it's kind of the intangibles, right, like you can't measure that there's a guy named Chris Walker on LinkedIn who talks about sort of the you know dark social or dark, you know dark metrics a little bit.
You just cannot track them, but you know they're there, you know there's a correlation by having this content out there and then you get little peaks by having it. Takes a conversation. I've got a client right now. She's got a new show not huge numbers and downloads and all of that and she was telling me a couple of weeks ago she had three different calls like sales calls come in. One of them became a client and she didn't know these from any other. She assumed it was from a talk she gave and maybe there and every single one of them. She was like so how did you even hear about, know about me? She's like oh, your podcast, your show, I've listened to every episode. She's like what are you talking about? I didn't know you.
You know like here's that was yeah, that's a nice sign yeah, and unless you ask, unless you know, so those little things pop up and that's the juice of all this. And there's those intangibles that are just out there and you know I lead with what I led with you know, in this show of the benefit and why to do it. And it's, it really is a sales focused thing, but there are it's benefit after benefit of this stuff from being the greatest networking, you know, network building tool that you can have. It's, you can have this reciprocal. You know, if someone's giving you referrals like oh, I'm going to introduce you to three people, and in your head you're sitting there like I don't have anyone to introduce you to, you're like why don't you come and be on the show?
And you know we'll have, you know. It's just, it's something you can get. Yeah, there's like there's all these layers to why to have this, that you know. And then on the book side too, it's just, there's just this oh, you have a book Like we're still wired, it's still, it just does Even logically. We know that anyone could write a book. We also know that not everyone does.
So, there's still that differentiator. It's a big deal. When you have a show, you have those things and any business, any person should put these things in place for that differentiation in there.
Stuart: Yeah, we talk about the books as being a great start in the conversation. So top of the funnel type stuff of going from an unknown, invisible prospect to a visible prospect. But the point that the minority of people take any action in the short term and the majority of them take action in the long term, I look at it myself. I mean I've got far too many tabs open on my computer because there's things on each of those tabs that in a perfect world I would get to. The thing on that tab but I'm probably not going to get to, my computer will crash at one point and then they'll all go away and that will kind of make the decision for me. But that's the real benefit of the podcast. It's the minority of people who want to take action straight away. A book is great for addressing those people with an immediate intentional desire or reason to take action now. But to have the podcast, to be able to follow up with people for the rest of forever with something of value, reinforcing the message that got them in the conversation in the first place, it's just such a great opportunity to be intersecting with them, intersecting with me on the day that I've got a unit of energy that I can look at this tab and if the podcast email comes through a release or there's something that I see on social media that reminds me. Oh yeah, I did mean to get to that and now today's the day that the planets align and I can do something with it.
As you were mentioning that intangible way of measuring that, I mean, it's almost impossible from any kind of numerical metric point of view. One of the one of the examples I give talking about kind of like dead lists, because we get it all the time. So the premise of the book is to get names, to collect the names and then use email to stay in touch with over the long term, and the fact that the book was the positioning piece to begin with just amplifies that conversation. But this idea of the emails and I think this goes for podcast metrics as well a friend of ours was a realtor up by k-pan, up by boston, so he'd had a list for years and years, decided to purge everyone off the list who hadn't opened an email or hadn't interacted in whatever way that means in the last couple of years or so. So purged all of these names off the list.
Six months goes by and he gets a call from someone, he says ah, kenny, I'm glad I got hold of you. Oh, it's a voicemail, because he played the voicemail for us. So kenny gets a voicemail from someone hey, kenny, it's bob, I'm glad I managed to get hold of you. I don't know what happened. I must have got off your list somehow, anyway, receiving your market watch for years. Unfortunately, my sister passed away recently and we're going to sell her house and we're going to sell our house and then consolidate somewhere else.
Anyway, I hope this number's correct. I had to phone another realtor in town to get your number, but give me a call, it's 555, whatever. So they ended up selling two oceanfront properties in Cape Ann like multimillion dollar properties each of them, but Kenny had purged it. Like multi-million dollar properties each of them, but kenny had purged it. So from the podcast perspective, if you're just looking at the numbers and saying, oh, the download number here is not great, or open rate here's not great, you don't know where that other person is, just sat there slowly consuming it, enjoying it, no real sign of life. But when the day is the day for them, like you were saying with the client before, that's the day that they raise their hand, and I've listened to every episode. I feel like I know you.
Jason: Oh yeah, and thank goodness he'd done a good job and that person wanted that badly.
Stuart: Right.
Jason: How many people did he purge that go to that effort, but would have called yeah, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stuart: I always laugh on that story because I think about the other, the intermediate realtor that answered the call and the guy said oh, hey, I, yeah, I've got two houses to sell beachfront. Oh, that sounds great. How can I help you? Well, do you have Kenny's number?
Jason: Exactly.
Stuart: But to your point. I mean that idea that nurturing this relationship for the long haul, knowing that it's for the long haul and having the confidence that what you're creating is putting valuable stuff out there into the world, and whether you only deliver that content to the five people who do ultimately become clients, or whether you deliver that content to the 500 other people that it's not time for them, there's no additional cost. You're still putting the same effort into getting those people. So that vanity metric was five or five hundred or five million, it doesn't make any difference. The job and work of what we're trying to do is to nurture leads and get clients for business the pod we're not in. The podcast. Business we're not in the being an author.
Jason: Business it's yeah conversation and I encourage folks to just put yourself in that consumer space. So for me, I know when I first get into somebody's ecosystem. However, I got there, I heard them interviewed on somebody else's podcast. Now I'm going to go check out their podcast or grabbed a webinar and like, oh, this is, this is resident. I want everything in that moment. I want everything. I want I want a book, because there's a certain time of day, every day, I'm going to read something. I wish this person had a book because I would read that in my time, right, and I would listen to that podcast and I would listen to the audio. But I would go like and I think many of us are wired that way Like, certainly we have our preferences on how we consume information, stuff like that, but we want every, and it may be a short window, it may be two weeks, it may be three months, but in that time and we're in that person's ecosystem we want everything in all these different ways. So give it to me.
Stuart: As many ways you can show up for that reason, the better yeah, it is interesting, isn't that psychology of people when they're in the discovery phase. I always remember I got a few gray hairs down my beard, so I can't get away with making school stories too often now because it's too far in the past. But there was a friend of mine when we were in school would come back after every summer vacation and was like the expert in some new skill. He was just one of those, wasn't? I don't? It was back in the day before the word autistic was invented.
But they kind of, when you think about that real deep dive on the thing, as you kind of think about the uh, what's the movie with the the rain man type approach of really deep diving on a complete thing. So he would do the same, but I mean, this was back in the late 80s, early 90s maybe, but he would consume everything like magazines. It was pre-internet days, so magazines, books from the library, I mean it would have even been before podcasts and audio. So I can't think what else it would have been but this idea that you get into the phase and, as you said, whether it's two weeks or two months, of just consuming as much as you can, because I think as business owners.
It's easy for us to forget the 101 level that people are desperate to consume when they're interested in something because it's second nature. It's like driving stick shift, like once you've done it for 20 years you don't even think about it. But the first few times that you're doing it, every single movement, you're kind of trying to absorb as much feedback as you can. So that idea of someone when the time is right for them. They are in an all-consuming world and if you're not providing, you're not satiating that appetite, then they'll look somewhere else and the risk is that will lead them down a path that doesn't end up at your front door.
Jason: Oh, yeah, yeah, and think of them too, as we can't bypass People who are not in this game. For the audience, the fame, anything like that, they see that as nonsense. Don't be too quick to dismiss that part. You don't have to be If make the. If you have that attitude, you can be the best version of quote unquote famous, you know, in your industry because you're not in it for that. But if you realize what a means to an end that is and it is a positioning tool and you don't have to approach it in this egotistical way. But again, like a lot of things we're talking about today, they get lumped in that into these buckets, right, and it seems like you know, oh, you, just you know, oh, I'm going to be famous, whatever you know, it's like well, no, we're not talking that, but there is a level of it that especially I'm talking to a coach who has the ability to transform people's lives and by transforming their life, they transform their family's lives and that ripple effect.
And ripple effect, you bet I think you should be on a stage, you bet you should have a show and have these things. That again, just because of how we're wired, like, oh, they have their own show, oh, oh, they've written a book. Okay, if they just get, they get put in that little niche, higher in that positioning, and that stuff is important yeah, you don't care your opinion on it.
Honestly, it's just a fact. Those things are important to people as a whole, right like, and let's not shy away from that yeah, it is interesting.
Stuart: I fall into the same camp. Like my natural tendency is to be behind the scenes, not in front of the scenes and the whole. The thing that's the most infuriating is when you see what appears to be somewhat superficial things out there that are getting traction and you can get this feeling of I don't know if condescending is the right word, but certainly frustration of I'm looking at a. I use the seo example. Sometimes you look at an seo company's page and they'll have listed on there. We'll get you indexed on google and the search engines. I mean that's clearly a bs thing to say because 99.99 keep going on the nines, the search engines doing themselves. So to see that superficial thing out there, it's frustrating. And the same thing from when you look at personality like the personality, the culture, personality it seems very cultish and superficial and but the downside of that is the exact point that you're saying I individually have it's a lost opportunity.
I've been doing this for 10 years now. I mean more people should be aware of what we do than some of the other companies that do more of a better job of being out there than we are but deliver a worse product and have been in it for less long. So it's definitely a. There is a. It was maybe net neutral before. It didn't really matter one way or another. You could either do it one way or another another. But now it's definitely a negative of not having these pieces, because I think people get on the path of heading towards you and they're happy to stay on that path, but they really want reassurance that they're in the right place. So, just like 20 years ago, if you didn't have a website, who cared? 15 years ago, if you didn't have a website, oh well, maybe it's that's a bit questionable today, if you don't have a website, that's a clear ding against it and will push people away.
Jason: So not saying that books or podcasts at that stage, but it's definitely another check in the box of credibility or reassurance that people are in the right space oh, yeah, yeah, it's so interesting how you know it is a fine line, right, right, it's a fine line when I put that message out to my ideal clients, because my ideal clients aren't interested in that. It's they're the coaches who are. They're killing it. They do an amazing job, like they are operating this high level and have this level of confidence that they can change a life. But there's that little itch, that little like they have what you described. They look out at the world and the people doing, you know being way less effective, with a massive audience and a massive following.
And, yes, while everything I said at the beginning is true of okay, we need three people this month, there is again I can't argue with the fact that more is better in so many ways. Right, you know, like, yes, if you can build that and grow that over time, why not do that to give yourself that again more of a reach and ripple effect? Because a lot of times then too, it's, you know, hey, my business is fine, I'm getting to that legacy piece. Now I want to reach more people who are I don't have room for another one-on-one client, but I know I can help people in these other ways over time and you talk about seeing the frustrating folks out there, the you know like, oh my gosh, this person's at this level or whatever, and it does, and I have that visceral reaction to it and I'm just like, oh my God, you know really.
And then I stop and I go, okay, good, what can I learn from what they're doing? Because I would never in a million years do this and this that they're doing. It's either shady or poor quality and all that stuff. But what are they doing? That's right in finding those nuggets. And I've done that more in this last year of just learning from folks who, yeah, we probably wouldn't hang out, we wouldn't be friends. I don't want to hang around this person, necessarily, but wow, they are a genius in this area in this way and I'm going to learn everything I can and I think that's an open-minded, expanding way to kind of approach all this.
Stuart: It's funny, isn't it? It's taking the way that we would talk to potential clients about why they should do a podcast or write a book. It's saying, hey, there's all these other things out there that are in the category but not in the way that we would do it, and then apply that in the exact same scenario here, those other people, the people who are getting the bigger audiences but aren't necessarily doing it in the way that we would do it. That's fine as well. Take the pieces that work and ignore the pieces that don't work. It's, I think, for your audience as well. I mean, it's such a making podcast, whether it's a video podcast or audio podcast. It's. The video component of it is almost a transmission mechanism, but the way that it goes into people's brains is still through the ears.
The into the words transmitted by the video that goes in the ears. So the fact that coaches, particularly that you're working with, have such a audible based tripping over the technical terms but it's a very all-based speciality. They're talking to people and getting people to talk to them. So the fact that people can hear their voice repeatedly, it builds up such a rapport before they even get on the phone so that, as an amplifier towards making the business side of it go faster, that has to be such a win for them.
Jason: Oh yeah, and that's just that's sheer numbers. From following the folks who are, you know, who are doing kind of everything from YouTube to the podcast, it's like they get bigger. What was it bigger? Because just looking at the study that they had put out, and it was bigger, either interaction or I mean there's obviously like seo gains and all that stuff from the youtube side of things right but they got more buyers from podcasts.
It was trackable. It was like the people who regularly listened were these folks who they were and they were showing up and it was an easier sell. It was.
Stuart: Right.
Jason: Yeah, I know what you do. I know what you know. I was on a. I was on the was with a partner of mine and on a receiving end of a sales call a few months ago. I was just sort of there in support but I had followed the person who was this guy was working for on the sale for a while and he's going down the list of everything in my head. I'm just like, yeah, I know, I know, I know this is who he's looking for.
I know this is what he wants, like that's why I'm here, you know, that's why I brought this other person to have this conversation, because I knew all of this, because he states it so clearly in every episode like this is who I want to work with. This is what I do not want to work with yeah if you're like this don't even show, you know, and it does, it shortcuts that.
Stuart: So, so well yeah, we had a book client who's a podiatrist. We did a podcast a couple of months ago now. So podiatrist has written a couple of books. The latest one was called my Damn Toe Hurts about. Whatever the condition is that would make your suggest that they should do is short cutting the, not the technical procedure but the broad strokes of what will happen. And he said he had an element of. He was sat there in a consultation with someone. In like three quarters of the way through they just said oh, I've just realized you're the paul who wrote the book. Oh, yeah, yeah. So there was that element of additional kind of credibility because he was the person that they'd consumed before. So, knowing how the conversation was going to go, and to your point, they turned up already predisposed to being aligned with the outcome. It's so much about it.
Jason: That's great to hear that example from. We don't hear that example right, we hear the marketing and the sales call. You know that side of example from a doctor's level working as well, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, it's such a the sales call.
Stuart: you know that that side of example from a doctor's level working as well, that's awesome yeah, yeah, it's such a great medium and I think the ability, particularly post-covid now everyone's so familiar with zoom. I mean that was a game changer really for anything video based. The fact that it's so easy and people are comfortable with getting being in front of a camera. The fact that they've really not necessarily fancy backdrops but at least they kind of there's a comfortableness around having a camera pointing somewhere into their room. And most people have got something around, a mic. That's better than just a laptop, a laptop microphone, so it just shortcuts the mechanism for them.
So, as the people are listening and I'm super conscious of your time, it's kind of a standing joke that I get to this point in every podcast and say I can't believe how quick it's gone, but it really has gone quick. Again, I want to give people a little bit of encouragement or a boot off the fence if they're thinking about it. So the people who you work with the barrier to them getting started or any concerns, what would you say to people who've thought about it but not yet pulled the trigger?
Jason: Yeah, what would you say to people who've thought about it but not yet pulled the trigger? Yeah, it's, get some help with it. That doesn't mean it needs to be even just having that advice and really take it into. I guess it's two parts, right, because it does happen. Right, that overwhelm?
They're either like the idea of that whole thing seems overwhelming, or they come into it with just like a podcast, cool, you just pick up your phone and kind of talk, you can just do that now, right, like, and then they see everything that needs to get created, you know to, to launch, and they're like oh, my goodness, but then we break that down and step by step. So there is that piece once you get into it, and it's this you know, let's just take it step by step. But you know, get this, you don't have to do it all in a day. And it's this you know, let's just take it step by step. You know, get this, you don't have to do it all in a day.
And here's this, but a bigger kind of a zoomed out is more of what I was talking about earlier in in get in the reason why, see how this is going to integrate into your business and if it's not? Well, that's problem number one. Right, like how and how could it be right? How could I do this thing in a way that it's it's an extension of what I'm doing already it is. You know, it's what I hope every first sales call would be right.
It's that having guests on and bringing that in. And for those who are like, okay, all the technical, that's great. I just how am I going to interview somebody? How am I going to just start practicing? Right, start practicing doing the reps. You don't even have to push record Again. Thank goodness to Zoom and all the online video that people are just automatically more comfortable than we were three, four or five years ago. But so much of it is just doing the reps and you can really play and have fun. And I would tell you, well, two things I want before we wrap Number one along those lines you can do that with ChatGPT right now. I mean, if you have the, you know 20 bucks a month for ChatGPT 4. Now, I mean, if you have the, you know 20 bucks a month for chat, gpt for, and a mobile phone. You can have a conversation and have an interview back and forth. And it's nuts, like we live in the future, everybody like it is crazy.
So even if you don't have that friend you want to bring on and bother or whatever you can have, you can sit there and practice with it and you, well, I, I promise you you will be amazed at the naturalness of this conversation. It's bad Cause I was just doing it a few days ago.
Stuart: Yeah, it's wild yeah.
Jason: Oh yeah, and then along those lines, I'll just to encourage everybody. What I encourage everybody to do, and nobody ever wants to do besides doing the reps, is every single episode you do, every practice you do. Listen to it back, watch it back If that is your concern is to be better at this interviewing thing, or even solo episodes. It is life-changing to sit there and review your stuff and it's the last thing you want to do. Nobody will. Everyone hates the sound of their voice. Everyone hates how they look.
You know, it's just a thing, but I promise you from having doing you know, done hundreds and hundreds of episodes. It is you just have to do it and you reach a point very quickly. Honestly, even if it's 20, 30 episodes in, you go from this subjective like, oh, that's, oh, my god, I can't stand my voice, I gotta listen to that again. Oh, I'm talking nasally. Oh, I do, you know.
And you go to this objective. It just it hits at some point and you become very objective and you're like, oh, wow, wow, that was a really good transition there. That was a great question. Oh, that was a good. Oh, I need to work on that. And it just there's a switch that happens in there and then it becomes the greatest just communication tool or communication improvement tool, regardless of recording it or not, just in person, you know improves because of it Right, of recording it or not just in person, you know improves because of it right. And you see all those things, you hear all those things that you're um, then ahs, of course, but maybe it's that same word you use, only you know ending every sentence with it right? You know there's levels to it, because if you listen to everything back you'll get annoyed. If you have to edit your own stuff, oh, that's a whole new level of yelling at yourself.
Stuart: Apparently from the editing the bits and pieces that we see in the podcast here. I never realized how much I say oh, you're hitting a nail on the head. Apparently, if you'd have asked me before I started doing podcasts I would have never thought I did that. But from the transcripts apparently I say it a lot. Word of encouragement for anyone who's concerned about that. We're 170 episodes in and I've got a dodgy uk accent and big gaps in my teeth, so if I can do it and stick on video, then everyone can do it whatever, look at that magnificent beard.
Jason: You can't man, you should sell the beard. You should sell a beard kit for people who want to start like this. Is there's confidence?
Stuart: in that beard. This is the secret sauce you and I have. Kind of we're giving the game away. Now it's the beard that gets it for everyone that's right.
Jason: And to have your very own beards in the 1995 straight to stewart for rounded merch jason.
Stuart: It's been really fun.
I think hopefully we've the audience that are listening to this are people who have raised their hand is interested in the book.
So I think the underlying idea that there are things out there like books and podcasts that a lot of people are using just for the sake of having them, but a small amount of orchestration can really make the difference and it can just support the marketing and sales and business development goals that you've got, because it opens up so many doors. A book is something that kind of is seen as this huge credibility piece that other people don't have and people receive it as a gift and it establishes an authority, and a video podcast or podcast in general does the same thing but also allows you to communicate your voice, and it's also got such a long tail compared with the book. The book is great in the moment, but the podcast really has a long tail. And with the book, the book is great in the moment, but the podcast really has a long tail and all of these opportunities that you mentioned. So where can people find out more about what you guys do?
Jason: Yeah, happy to tell that, but I just want to emphasize I love that order too. I love get your book done and then on that podcast, because it's the perfect mechanism to send people. You know, if you do get their attention over on the podcast side and over time and you grow, it's that's where you send them. Hey, is this resonating for you? Hey, do you have this problem? If you're listening to this, you probably do go check out my book. I mean, it's the greatest, like send them to an action, give them something to do other than just generally subscribe and, like you know, like you know, gets them out of there.
Stuart: Now you mentioned that being a guest on other people's shows as well, which inevitably happens when you have a show turning up and rather than people saying generally although admittedly I just asked you and interrupted where people can find out more about what you do. But in another scenario you can imagine, I mean, we're pretty dialed in on the message that we've got here, so a specific call of action to go to the website is is logical. But you can imagine being in that slightly broader context world where you don't necessarily immediately want to just say go to the website and you might lose that connection. That conversation to a book is just a such a value add anyway.
Jason: So yeah and just and again, this is the part of the conversation that is a do as I say, not as I do. Part of the conversation because, absolutely, a do as I say, not as I do. Part of the conversation Because, absolutely I should have a single landing page with a tripwire, whether it's a book, a physical book, something that they can go.
That would leverage my time and being here way better than where I'm going to give you is go to thejasoncroftcom and you'll see all the links. You'll see the link to Media Lead site. You'll see all the shows. Go get my book over at. Yeah, that's a way better. Oh, I'm going to remember that. Oh, the launch book Okay, I'm going to go look for that.
Stuart: That's something that people can grab onto, yeah, it was actually ended on a good example of the perfect use case for it. Because that audience just as you don't know which people are listening to your podcast until they raise their hand just sending them to the website. You don't know who's there until they raise their hand either. So if you can capture their, capture their details, then at least you've got a intermediary sign of life and an opportunity to keep in touch with them for the long term. But yeah, I really love what you guys are doing, the fact that you kind of take this, make it easy for people to get started and kind of orchestrate their message into something that they can use in multiple different locations. Try and intersect with those audiences.
Yeah, I highly recommend people checking out the the site. I'll make sure we put a link in the show notes so as people are listening to on a podcast player or on the website. As I say, we send an email out announcing every show and that brings people back to the website. So there'll be a link on there to you guys and what you do and reach out to Jason and let him know that you listen to the show here and then I'll get that sign of life and know that it's working.
Jason: Awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate you doing that. So glad to be here. It's been a blast.
Stuart: Yeah, me too. Thanks again for your time, Jason.