In this episode of the Bookmore Show, I sit down with Brent Hilvitz and Vince Reese to discuss their co-authored book, "_Untying the Knots,_" which focuses on navigating real estate and mortgage issues during divorce. Brent, a real estate expert, and Vince, a mortgage lender, share insights on how they aim to simplify the asset division process, particularly in real estate.

We explore why they chose to target individuals going through divorce, noting that it’s a life event that prompts asset division regardless of market conditions. They emphasize the importance of understanding options available to those affected, such as refinancing or keeping marital property.

Brent and Vince discuss the evolving landscape of real estate and lending, particularly how recent interest rate hikes have influenced clients' perceptions of their financial options. They stress the significance of early engagement, as proactive measures can lead to better outcomes.

The conversation highlights the value of starting discussions about financial decisions before divorce proceedings are finalized. By providing a roadmap for individuals in this situation, the authors hope to equip them with knowledge and strategies to navigate the complexities of divorce and real estate. Overall, this episode serves as a guide for anyone facing these challenges, offering practical advice and support.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

1. We discussed the challenges people face in dividing assets during a divorce, particularly real estate.

2. Brent Hilvitz introduced his business, Redesigned Realty, and emphasized the importance of understanding real estate options during divorce.

3. Vince Reese highlighted the differences in how judges and mortgage underwriters assess income, affecting financial decisions post-divorce.

4. The book's working title, "Untying the Knots," aims to resonate with individuals navigating the complexities of divorce.

5. We explored the rationale behind targeting divorcees as a specific audience, noting the inevitability of real estate transactions during such life changes.

6. The conversation included how real estate and mortgage fundamentals remain consistent, despite changing market conditions.

7. Vince pointed out that rising interest rates have impacted people's perceptions of their ability to refinance or buy new homes.

8. Brent and Vince shared insights on the importance of early communication and planning in the divorce process to explore available options.

9. We discussed the value of creating a structured outline for the book to focus on the most relevant topics for readers.

10. The episode emphasized the role of collaboration with professionals, such as divorce attorneys, to enhance the resources available to clients.

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Brent Hilvitz:
LinkedIn: Brent Hilvitz
Website: Redesigned Realty

Vincent Reese:
Website: Colorado Mortgage guy

TRANSCRIPT

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got a special episode for two guests. So we're joined by Brent Hilvitz, apologies if I butchered that name, and Vince Reese. Guys, how you doing?

Brent: Doing great, thanks for having us on.

Vince: Doing awesome, really appreciate it.

Stuart: I'm looking forward to it. It's always interesting having authors on where you've co-authored something because you get the two perspectives on the questions. And as we're kind of talking about how the book came together and what you think out of it, what you want to get out of it, the thinking that gets to that place.

Oftentimes people have come from broadly the same position, but different approaches. So it's always interesting. Why don't we start by giving people a bit of a background on who you guys are and the business, and then we can jump into the book.

Brent: My name is Brent Hilvitz and I own Redesigned Realty. And the book's really about dealing with real estate and mortgage when it comes to divorce.

Stuart: So Vince is a lender. Vince, you want to give a little intro?

Vince: So Vince Plum Creek Funding, Colorado mortgage guy.com. And what I've noticed is there's a lot of different ways that a judge or financial planners will work, look at income versus how a mortgage underwriter looks at it. So it's really important that everybody understands.

If they're going to be moving on, buying a new home or keeping their existing home, what goes into that? How can they make it smooth? How can I help to make the transaction smooth? And that's kind of the basis of it.

Stuart: And this is such a fantastic jumping off point because you guys obviously know each other. You've got a relationship, but two different organizations, but this synergy of bringing your expertise together in a way that really helps people. And we often talk about pick the single target market, talk to the people that you can really help treat it like a funnel and educate and motivate people to move forward to the next step.

But the book is called, or the working title at the moment is called Untying the Knots, which again, when we think about a title that kind of really resonates and communicates what the book's about, that is a 10 out of 10 on a title. But this idea of picking the audience that you can help the most.

Was this particular audience the first one that sprang to mind or did you guys work together to come up with, okay, the whole group of people that we put up, what made you choose this particular divorcees as the group to work with?

Brent: I chose it because there's so many people that don't understand how real estate ties in and how to separate that. And so that's why I wanted to really focus on it is to help people understand that because they do have options. They don't necessarily have to just sell the marital property. They might be able to refinance it. And there's different guidelines that they qualify for during our divorce and then buying a new home.

Vince: Oh, sorry. I was just going to interrupt for two seconds. I was going to say, I think one of the things when it comes to why we chose that target market. One, it was just a market that, you know, we kind of sat down and said, what's a market where people are going to be moving no matter what the real estate market's doing. And we came up with a couple of things. And, uh, one of those was divorce and it was like, well, people get divorced. Doesn't matter what the market is doing. It's not usually one of those choice things.

And so we kind of came up with divorce as being a niche that made sense for us. Both of us have worked with multiple clients who've gone through divorce. So we've seen some of those experiences that people have gone through, and that was really important for us to kind of put some knowledge to those people and ideally just get in front of some of the problems that we see happen.

Brent: After the fact, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, boy, if I'd only, right. If you'd only been able to get there. Yeah. Right. If I'd only been able to tell you this before you did that, you know, things would be so much different and so much easier or whatever it is. So that's really, I think where it came from was trying to find a really specific niche market.

Vince: Yeah, that, um, wasn't market dependent, you know, it wasn't dependent on what's happening with the housing market.

Stuart: And that's such a great point as well, because oftentimes, again, I've said it before on the show, but when you say book, what pops into people's minds is a very traditional based thing. They think of a book as a big, heavy thing that takes a long time to create, and it's kind of set in stone and it's not movable and it's kind of evergreen rather than of the moment.

But when you think about it as a realtor, as a mortgage broker, we're recording this in the middle of 2024. So, I mean, there's some challenges to the market, but when you could do anything. So I've thought about it enough to pick, okay, what is the thing that is least affected, an area of business that has to occur anyway.

I really like this as a project because it kind of ticks that box. Not only is it offering the value and starting the conversation by giving something and sharing something that really makes a difference, but in terms of the outcome and the business impact of it, you could have delivered that same value to multiple different groups, but this is the one that you're doing today.

It just really solves a lot of problems for both sides of the equation for you and for them.

Brent: Yeah, and I think for us, especially when it comes to marketing, it's so much easier for us to be able to market to a specific group. Right. You know, it's, you know, you can't be everything to everybody and Vince and I don't want to be that. You know, we have certain areas of expertise. You know, we certainly do other things other than divorce, but, you know, being able to say here, this is something specific. And, you know, Dean Jackson talks a lot about raising your hand. You know, this is something where you can get people to raise their hand and say, hey, I'm in this situation, or I'm thinking about being in this situation, or we're going through this process, and, you know, there's not a lot out there right now, you know, that we find that, you know, is really useful to people when it comes to this part of it.

And there's a lot of, a lot of books about relationships, obviously, a lot of self-help books about divorce and how to deal with that and cope. That's not what we wanted to do. We really wanted to say, you know, how can we make the process of dividing assets, especially real estate, easier? And how can you be more prepared for it?

Stuart: That's a great point as well. So when you look at the content in the book and all of the possible things that you can include, obviously the scope goes very broad and very, very niche at the same time, depending on each person's individual circumstances. The advice that you would give someone today is the market such that it's broadly the same as five years ago, or the advice that you would have given five years ago, has it changed now?

So this is more of a timely thing as well as useful. It's actually timely, or is it more evergreen that the fundamentals are still the same and then it becomes very case by case?

Brent: Well, I think, uh, the fundamentals of real estate are kind of always the same. You know, it's markets change. Things are either easier to sell or more difficult to sell, but when it comes down to divorce, a lot of that is this, it's the same questions that they've had for 10 years, 20 years, whatever it is, you know, it's, well, how do I know that I'm getting a fair deal? How do I know that I'm going to be able to buy another home?

You know, those are things that are kind of perennial. We do deal with a lot of, um, kind of, you know, what's happening now, but it is, you know, it's really focusing on the questions that need answering no matter, you know, what the period is.

Vince: What about on the lending side? So as kind of lending criteria changes or rates change and, uh, the, uh, people's, the amount of income that people need to have changes over time. Is that a similar situation to Brent that the fundamentals are really the same? It's just the specific numbers might change or does that change more dramatically as the market forces change, it really changes people's approach. This has been the biggest thing that I've seen.

Um, rates increased so drastically over the last 18 months, 2 years. Okay. So a lot of people don't believe now that they can afford to buy another house, or they won't qualify to refinance the house. And so some people are keeping that property as a joint asset until rates do come down.

So that's one shift that I've seen is some couples are deciding to hold on to that property and let one or the other live in the property until the rates adjust. Now, my belief has always been the quicker you can untie the knot, then the quicker you can move on with your life. Right. So there's some tax benefits and I'm not a tax accountant, but there's some tax benefits that people can enjoy with the higher interest rates.

And it's making sure that people understand that as well, but the interest rates probably are the biggest change that have happened. The programs are all pretty much the same: job, credit, income. Right. And that's those three things are always going to be a piece.

Brent: That's an interesting topic.

Vince: I'd say, let me add to that. One thing I would say is, on top of rates increasing, home values have increased incredibly over the last four or five years. And so that's something, again, it's not anything that the nuts and bolts have changed on how things are handled. Now it's not, you know, maybe before it was a little bit or, you know, wasn't a big deal, but if you've been in your home for four or five years or more, that's, you're talking about a chunk of money that you've got to divide and that you've got to talk about.

So it is a little bit elevated. And that in terms of the point that you made about the quicker you sell these things, the cleaner it is. Depending on how contentious the divorce is in the moment, at least everyone's at the table trying to deal with it. In three years' time, people's motivations have changed, their relationship status has changed, their personal circumstances change.

So to have to revisit the contract that was drawn up or the agreement that was drawn up at the time or to try and renegotiate or to feel even more jaded or bring up bad feelings. I mean, addressing it in the moment, if people are under the impression that they just don't have a choice, they need to leave it, and that's not the case, then open up people's eyes to the opportunities that are out there today.

Psychologically, I mean, that seems like that would be a huge win to untie that knot, but put a bow around this one and be able to move on cleanly.

Brent: Yeah, so here's an example. Um, long-time client that I've been with. It's been with me and recently divorced, and she honestly thought that she could not afford to buy out the ex-husband. Ran the numbers, ran the numbers, and we ended up being able to give the ex-husband $80,000 in cash to split the equity, and she still has the beauty of being a homeowner, but she didn't think she would qualify.

Vince: Right. And that, that's really, everybody's got to take a look at it. And that's the message I want to deliver is don't just throw your hands in the air.

Brent: Don't give up. There are always solutions. And I think that was what makes the book such a great opportunity to start that conversation, because as people are trying to navigate for themselves, what the right answers might be, there's almost the problem of too much information out there. If you start searching around, you can get answers that either reinforce whatever viewpoint you already have or contradict it, or there's such a dearth of information that you kind of just throw your hands up and bury your head in the sand and don't go forward.

Stuart: So I think this is the benefit of both yours and everyone's. What can we work with? It's the having a guiding hand to say, Hey, this might not be the right answer for you, but at least this is a jumping-off point for the questions, and we can have a conversation around it.

Brent: It's that you've typically find that's what happens as people come and talk to you guys. There's a, I don't know if an eye-opening moment is quite the way of thinking about it, but there's an opening up of the opportunities, or is it that, you know, people only historically come to your door when they've already made that decision or they're already partway down the track?

Vince: If that makes sense, kind of how early do people come to you? Is it still at the investigation stage, or are they already kind of bought into the idea that they do have options?

Brent: It's mixed. For me, it's mixed. I have people that come in and they're pondering the idea. Then we'll go over some of the different options that they'll have. And sometimes I get people that the divorce is already final and I wasn't involved at all with it. So it's a good mix. I prefer to be involved initially, so I can help navigate that.

Vince: Yeah. Yeah. Brent, like you were saying before, it's almost like, I wish we'd had this conversation a couple of months ago, because then we would have had options. Once the train's on the track and gets so far down, it's difficult to kind of reverse decisions that have already been made.

Brent: Yeah, I think that, you know, that's one of the keys is there's so many avenues that you can go down. At least if you start off with, here's a map, basically. And if, you know, it's always difficult when you're in the middle of a divorce or you're contemplating divorce, you know, maybe you don't have the best communication for both spouses to be able to say, okay, I at least understand what's available out there and what's important.

Vince: You know, I'm not trying to ruin somebody's life for the most part.

Brent: Yeah. Every once in a while, yes. But it's one of those things where, you know, we want to untie the knot. We want to separate. And how can we do it the best way so that it works out? The worst thing is to be tied to somebody because of financial issues.

Vince: Right. Yeah. Unnecessarily, particularly if there are options. I guess timing as well is, proactively addressing it as early as possible means that you've got more time to make less pressured, more informed decisions, whereas leaving something to the last minute where you're forced into a time box where you have to make a decision that, surely has to be the worst outcome because you just don't have the benefit of either taking a breath for a moment and thinking about it, or looking around for something that's better.

Brent: Which again, I think goes back to the benefit of the book as a conversation-starting tool, because you've got the opportunity to put it out there, either through the network of people who already know and trust you as a valuable asset that they can share with people who are struggling, or even if it's just running ads. I mean, running ads for something called "Untying the Knot" and then discussing the separation of real estate from the divorce. If you're in that situation, it's kind of like the horse-for-sale type analogy. If you're looking to buy a horse, the horse-for-sale sign is the thing that you're looking for.

Vince: Yeah, Stuart, this is kind of another way to look at it. Would you rather buy a car when yours is broken down or before it's broken down? Would you rather buy a house 30 days before your lease expires or start looking that 6 months to a year in advance, right? It's the same thing to me. And we try to make it simple. Brent and I both try to make it simple. We want to take some of that pressure off because there's so much pressure already. So if Brent and I can help alleviate some of that, that's what we want to do.

Brent: Yeah. And I think that information is important when it comes to alleviating that kind of pressure. You know, a lot of it is just knowing that there's answers out there and knowing that there are experts who understand your situation when you're going through a divorce makes it at least a little bit of the pressures off of you.

Vince: Yeah, I think that's, I was going to say something similar in terms of the content and the value that's been provided in answering. Every situation is unique, like we were saying before, and I think a lot of people who are thinking about writing a book get hung up because typically we've been in the business for a number of years and because the one-on-one level stuff just ticks by, we don't have to get involved in it because it's just part of the process. So we're all dealing with the fires and the edge cases. And it's easy to get too caught up in that and think, okay, if I want to write a book, well, there's a million edge cases.

Brent: So it either needs to be this big, or I couldn't possibly cover everything. Which is really missing the point. The people who you're engaging at the top of the funnel at the first point of contact, they're still at the one-on-one level of information gathering and trying to understand the landscape. So that map that you talked about before, the kind of showing people what the world of opportunities or possibilities is. And then just starting them down the conversation to those different paths. That's really where the value is added in this project. And then the firefighting and the unique and everything that you do as a one-on-one, that's further down the track. That's two or three points along the railway line.

Vince: Yeah, I think that you're absolutely right. I mean, if we were to write a book about everything, you know, all the possible outcomes, you know, we'd have a set of encyclopedias, you know, to cover all the subjects.

Brent: So yeah, it's not about that. It's about—

Vince: Sorry, go ahead.

Brent: I was just going to say, and that's not what people want. When we think about the job of work, it's solving their problems for them. And the reality is solving their problems for them isn't an education-based issue for the most part. That's going to start the conversation and it might help them take the next step. But really whether you're, you know, an accountant or real estate or mortgage or a vet or a florist or no matter what the business is, it really ultimately comes down to their solution to the problem is they need you.

Vince: The education piece is just providing that value, reinforcing that they're in the right place, building a rapport with people, being as helpful as possible so that when the time is right for them and they need to raise their hand to take that step, you're the incumbent, the obvious choice because you've started that relationship six months ago.

Brent: Yeah, I have a friend who, you know, if you ask him the time, he likes to tell you how the watch was invented in every detail of the watch, and that's not really important. What I really want to know is just tell me the time, you know, get me the information that I need without all of the minutiae and explanation and things that yes, it's a complex subject. Of course it is. But as a consumer, I'm not looking for, you know, I don't want to know every detail of everything. I want to know what are my options? Can you help me? And can you get me through this process?

Vince: Yeah. Yeah. And that's really what, you know, what we're trying to do. We're not trying to be again, the encyclopedia of everything that could possibly happen.

Brent: No, we're here to—

Vince: Such a great analogy, because again, I love this subject. People have been on a kind of like a one-on-one strategy call with me. They know that a half-hour call typically runs noticeably longer than that because I'm enthusiastically getting carried away with it, but in that scenario, when I'm talking to a peer who's there for that knowledge, that's okay. That's not necessarily within reason a bad thing.

Brent: But just as you said, if someone comes and asks for the time, what they want is the confidence that you're given in the right time. So if you start talking about the mechanics of how it works, that's too much. Or if you look at your watch and say, well, it's probably about sometime after lunch, that's not helpful either. They want that confidence and certainty that if they want to know the time, wherever they are in the world, they're going to ask Brent because Brent's the guy that's certain about what the time is.

Vince: And it's again, it's easy to talk about, but it's sometimes difficult to do, but understanding where we are in that journey with the customer and more importantly, where they are, that makes a difference.

Brent: I also think that, you know, sometimes that knowing, you know, to be able to explain something simply to people, you do need to know how the watch is built, right? You just don't have to explain to everybody how it's built, but it's important that you know how the watch is built.

Vince: And, you know, Brent and I have, I don't know what, 50 years of experience between the two of us or more.

Brent: More, but I'm only 25.

Vince: You start with that level of knowing, kind of subtly hinting at the expertise or the depth without having it down someone's throat before they're ready for it. When you think about the content and what went into the book, I like to ask people how they thought about this idea of beneficial constraints or the scope of the book itself, because again, like we just said, we could write the encyclopedia if we wanted to, but we don't want to.

Brent: So how did you decide which pieces were included and which were out of scope, either for the project as a whole, or they were in scope for the project as a whole, but it would be better served in a follow-up email or a later piece rather than the actual pages of the book?

Vince: Brent and I did a brainstorming on the different topics that we wanted to make sure we covered. So we had a list of like 30 to 40 topics on a whiteboard, right? And we narrowed it down to four to five out of that, and that's what we thought would bring the most value to somebody out of those topics. So that's kind of how we did that. We brainstormed it, wrote it on a whiteboard. We went old school.

Brent: Yeah, and hashed it out. I think I describe it often when I'm talking to people who imagine the table of contents, that it's a hierarchy. So the outlining tools that you get on the computer where you kind of click on the button and it expands and then you click on it and it contracts back up.

Vince: So you kind of think about it from just expanded or contracted all the way up to the title. And if someone only sees that, does it resonate with the journey that you want them to go on? And then there's title and subheadings. Do they both amplify each other and resonate and almost build two builds on the one?

Brent: And then the table of contents in the next level, table of contents in isolation, does that make sense on the path? And then the subheadings or the bold sections that you would have in the copy. So this kind of hierarchical view of, okay, if people just saw these points, this universe slowly expanding, is it all relevant?

Vince: And then the words that actually end up on the page, that's almost the last part of the puzzle. And by the time you get down to the subheadings and making sure that all of that is congruent, the bullet, uh, the text that goes on the page is almost then just filling in the gaps in between each of the sections and over more than the idea of just writing. And it will start flowing and then something will come from it.

Brent: Having that very orchestrated approach. So like you did with the whiteboard, the universe of ideas. And then the ones that are going to live within this asset. And now you've got the 26 others that didn't make the cut. Some of them you probably mentioned anyway, because they naturally come out in the conversation as you're describing it.

Vince: For those other elements that immediately becomes either another book, potentially, if there's a context to it, or the email sequence, or the LinkedIn posts, or the conversation that you have when someone comes through the door, knowing this universe of things that are important, and then deciding where they go, really powerful way of thinking about it, rather than just the—

Brent: Start writing in the hope that something comes together.

Vince: Don't hope it, just pray that it sticks, throwing a dart at the dartboard. And that's not what we did.

Brent: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think doing it in that outline view, the way that you did it, it's easier to comprehend it as a task. So if you go into a room, it's like the old Seinfeld, the latest series of Seinfeld, where they get the TV show and they're kind of sat there with a legal pad and it's like the whole episode is right.

Vince: So and so comes into the room and that's literally as far as they get because they're trying to do the whole thing in this one exercise. But if the exercise is for the next 50 minutes, I'm going to put on the whiteboard every possible idea that I can think about, no judgment, even if they're stupid ideas, it goes down.

Brent: And then the idea is sifting and sorting. And then the idea is, okay, well, what resonates as a title? Just breaking it down into those chunks makes it much more achievable. Was that your experience as well? Kind of, as you're bringing it together, that chunking it down helped?

Vince: I think that chunking it down really helped us kind of figure out where we wanted to go with it. One of the other things that we did, once we kind of had a very, very rough draft, is we ran it by a divorce attorney and said, what are we missing? You know, what is the stuff that, and also it's like, Oh, well, yeah, of course, you know, this would be super helpful if I knew this, you know, and she was, she was able to tell us, you know, I wish that my clients knew this before they even called me.

Brent: Yeah. If you could tell them this before they called me, that would make my life so much easier.

Vince: Right. And everyone's like, Oh yeah. Yeah, that actually is such a fantastic idea. We often talk about this idea. We usually talk about it in the context of, okay, once the book is done, what's this world of kind of complementary non-competing businesses where the client's the commonality, but you can kind of support each other rather than compete against each other.

Brent: So we're usually talking about that as a marketing tactic towards later in the process. But your idea of bringing someone in at the early stage to validate the idea, I don't even validate the idea in a judgy way, but validate it in a, oh, you can also include this. I mean, what a great opportunity that is to really, again, put a rubber stamp on the value that you're providing.

Vince: And not only that, we think that divorce attorneys are going to be part of our client base, right? Because the divorce attorneys are going to refer their clients to us. So we wanted to have that perspective, right?

Brent: It's so funny. Actually, we've got a project going on at the moment, which is we had a pilot group of people where we were using testing the ads, primarily in LinkedIn, but Facebook as well to a certain degree. So testing ads for things like titles and chapters and motivations, so that rather than coming to the book with a good reckon of what it is based on your experience, kind of testing the language first, because there might be some semantics or nuance on one way of describing it versus the other.

Vince: Anyway, one person in that project is a wealth manager type guy who works a lot with divorced women who are now in their fifties and suddenly realizing that they need to take control of these elements. And in part of that process, again, we were talking about divorce attorneys as this complimentary non-competing area, and I hadn't made the connection when you first said it, but one of the things we were talking about with Phil is reaching out to those people and either, again, a sanity check on some of the elements.

Brent: We actually didn't talk about it in terms of the overall thing, but just in some of the elements, but then also co-branding the book down the track. So once it's created, once you've got this asset created, it's easy for you to go back to that divorce attorney and say, Hey, we’d love for you to put an intro into this chapter and then put your name on the front and then start using it because it floats all of our boats in the sense of it spreads this message wider.

Vince: So that idea of looking out to the people within your sphere and looking for those complimentary people, so many great opportunities. And so many better conversations come from it as well. It's a super Yeah, I think that the, I think that being able to have, you know, an idea of not only the end user, but also who's going to fill your funnel. Right in mind when you start, you know, thinking about, okay, here's what we want to do. Here's what I want to write about, whether it's, you know, writing about real estate and divorce, or if you're writing about, I don't know, building a sports car, whatever it is, you know, somewhere along the line, you know, your end user is the guy that's going to buy the sports car. But the guy who works at the Ferrari dealership is, you know, the guy who's going to hand it to. And if we can make that guy look smart. And look like he's, um, you know, has the connections that's really important to us, right? We want, we want them to be the hero, um, for giving our book away.

Brent: Yeah, such an important way of thinking about it, isn't it? Because you can imagine a scenario where you knocked on that person's door, even if you had a relationship, knocked on the door and say, Hey, we've just written a book. It's our thing. Your clients absolutely need it because otherwise they're going to get the short end of the stick. That's one way of doing it. And okay, you've got a relationship, so that might get some traction, but going out there and doing a book podcast, creating some material with that divorce attorney, talking about why this is important, talking about the timeframe of the overall divorce journey, the market changes that are happening now, The unexpected real estate boom of everyone thinks prices are high and that's a problem. But if you've been in your house for more than five years, it's actually an asset. What people think, what things people can do today to make a difference, anything that you can do to, as you say, elevate that person's life. Perspective and, and position to their, to their clients, the, the, um, reflected light or the fact that you're seen as a, uh, I don't even want to use the word credible, but, but supportive partner in this whole world as providing solutions to the, to the clients, to the end users.

Vince: It really does lift, lift the whole, the synergy in a perfect sense of the word. Yeah. And I think that it's important, you know, in my business, I rely a lot on other professionals to do their job. And when we hire a photographer, we do professional photography for all of our listings, we've got a fantastic photographer. I'm not a good photographer, right? I'm that's not my, that's not what I'm good at, but she makes me look incredible. And that's what, you know, when I think about it, it's like, I want to be that same thing for my client. How can I make you look incredible?

Brent: Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that's a great moving on point towards, okay, now that the book's coming towards completion, the ideas of how are you going to use it? So we've talked about a couple of things in passing, but do you guys have any specific plans on using the book in either ads or with existing clients or with partners? Have you thought that far ahead in terms of, okay, it's going to be finished? In the not too distant future and then coming towards the end of the summer into the fall how we want to get it out there and starting those conversations with people?

Vince: Yeah, and maybe you can help me out because I can't remember the Aor or there's a group of attorneys who are mediators and in Colorado and many other states mediation is required before you go in front of a judge or before you do anything else the first step is mediation and in Colorado there are registered mediators that are, I don't want to say court appointed, but they're part of the court system.

Brent: Uh, and so for us, I'm sorry, what was that, Vince?

Vince: Court approved is the right term.

Brent: Court approved. Okay. There you go. Yeah. So, you know, those are kind of, you know, our low hanging fruit. We're hoping to, you know, get in front of them. And again, we just want to make their jobs easier. Yeah, if we can make their jobs easier, make them look better to their clients, that's a home run for us.

Vince: Yeah, you could imagine a scenario where specifically that use case, if that group is big enough, you can imagine a scenario of writing a book that had a preface or an introduction, specifically talking about mediation and the importance of mediation and how, as part of the process, it's information gathering is a good way to go.

Brent: And then that leads into one of the biggest decisions after what do we do with the kids is what do we do with the house? And here's some information, some unbiased information that's just helping you in this journey to understand that here's some options, but contextualizing it. Cause this is the thing that we often say that before we were recording, I think I said this, or maybe when we started, we're saying that people, you say book and what goes into someone's head is this traditional evergreen setting stone, difficult to update a one-off version. But when we're thinking about books as tools to start conversations, there's a lot more flexibility. So if the market is big enough and worthwhile to have a tailored version, which is very easy to do.

Vince: Yeah. But that, as you said, that makes the mediation, that increases the value of the mediation process or sits the house within context of the mediation process. The ability to tailor something now that 100 percent of this version and 90 percent of future versions is done just to be able to position it in that way. Such a great opportunity to, again, like I say, make it the most useful at the point that people interact with it.

Brent: Yeah, and I like that. One of the things we talked about in the book is just getting prepared before you go to that mediation. And the main reason is you're paying 125 or 200, 250 an hour to sit in front of this guy and you don't want to be going, Oh, well, you know, well, what is the house worth and what is this? And what are we going to do? What's our plan? And you know, you can burn up a bunch of time that way. That's an expensive back and forth, something that, and mediators are super busy, you know, the divorce rate is not going anywhere, right?

Vince: It's still pretty, you know, It's still pretty much the same, uh, that it's been for the last 20 years. You were talking about the economic benefits of writing this book because of the housing market and people are always getting divorced. Being, uh, an approved mediator is probably counter cyclical in the sense of when the markets are struggling, that probably doesn't help lower the divorce rate any.

Brent: So maybe they're going to be busier than, than, uh, they're not so that group of people then is kind of a great example of this complimentary area of people where your clients already exist. The ideas, the other two groups are either just the advertising, the top of the funnel marketing type stuff, and then existing clients and the kind of circle of influence of saying, Hey, this book's available.

Vince: It's a great resource. If you know anyone who's getting divorced, then just let us know. We can give you a copy to give to them. It's a, even if it's on, I'm talking a little bit quiet, like someone's hearing, even if it's on the down low at the moment, then this is a good resource for them. Maybe do just a blank cover version as the stealth version for referrers.

Brent: Um, but yeah. You can deliver it either with some Kleenex or one of those little bottles of whiskey, depending on what the person, how they're feeling. Um, but yeah, those two groups, like the referrer group, the people who already know like and trust you, and then just the top of the funnel, like ads, basically. Any thoughts around those two channels?

Vince: Oh, sorry. In terms of whether there's a, you've got a particular strategy for reaching out to like past clients and saying, Hey, we've just written this and it's a great tool. If you know anyone who's got questions, then just let us know and we can get a copy of the book to you or running ads to, I mean, Facebook ads or Instagram ads.

Brent: Seems like it would be, uh, there's a certain demographic that you can maybe make some assumptions on. Would be the sweet spot not wanting to be judgey, but I mean, I'm sure that there are some, you know, big data aggregators that know a couple's getting divorced before they even know they're getting divorced.

Vince: I was on a call a couple of days ago and someone reminded me of the story of Target. I think it was Target got in trouble a couple of years ago because they were sending like baby type mailings to a house when the daughter hadn't told the parents that she was pregnant or something like that.

Brent: So yeah.

Vince: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I'm sure there's a case that big brother knows, um, know some signs. So, and I, I'm, I'm not that smart of a marketer to know how to tap into that, but I'm sure there are people out there who do. Uh, but I do think there's, you know, we need, for us, at least we need our sphere of influence, uh, because those are the people that know, like, and trust us.

Brent: Um, but we also need these referral sources, you know, where you can get somebody who is, you know, a main line into the client base that we're looking for. Um, and I think that doing a broad spread of advertising, you know, uh, the shotgun approach, yeah, I've never found that to be super effective. Um, it's a pretty broad topic.

Vince: Yeah. So, I would think that if you did that, you know, obviously, you know, if you just, you know, put an ad out, 50 percent of the marriages ended in divorce. So, you know, 50 percent of the people that see it somewhere down the line are going to, are going to get divorced if they're married now.

Brent: Honest number. Yeah. Yeah. I see all these things where I kind of get a copy of the book, then look to your left and look to the right. And it's that book's going to be useful for one of you.

Vince: It would be interesting. So the whole kind of demographic and big data type thing, I mean, we don't play that much with Facebook ads, but even the limited amount that we do, they really just want you to put the ad up, click a button with the minimal amount of data, and then just say, Hey, I'll leave it to you.

Brent: You tell me who to send it to, and they'll use all of the magic background to get it in front of the right people. So I wonder nowadays whether in 2024 with that kind of kind of audience algorithm that AI based leave it to Facebook scattergun effect would actually be more effective than it would have been five years ago, where you were trying to select the audience and kind of infer who might be the best people based on things that you're picking.

Vince: So, but I agree. I think that's the third most valuable one. The two closer groups that you've got are absolutely that, that referring partner and then the people who know, like and trust you already. Um, as a realist, obviously we kind of, I think everyone has the impression at least that a lot of realist's work comes from referrals because it's such a, you're so engaged with the people.

Brent: Vince, I would imagine to a certain degree, it's similar on the mortgage broker side, but does that conversation come up less than the real estate side? Like, it seems like people would more easily fall into a conversation if I'm looking for a real estate than I'm looking for a mortgage broker. But from a client referral type basis, do you see that as a big driver of business or it's there, but not the biggest piece.

Vince: So I think I understand the question. Um, the, uh, the clients that I work with, I get several referrals from all of my clients and I get well, 100 percent of my business is referral. So I built this relationship with my clients where the doors are always open. And typically, they'll let me know when they're looking at buying a new house or their friends will let me know when they're looking at buying a new house.

Brent: And so then I'll get them through the pre-approval process and then either refer them back to their existing realtor or help them through that process. Right. Did that answer that question?

Vince: Yeah, definitely. And a hundred percent of the business or the majority of business coming from referrers. I guess that was the main point in the sense that we work with quite a few realtors. So I kind of know that business a little bit better, but having you saying that the majority of business comes from a personal connection and not just people looking through the yellow pages.

Brent: That doesn't yeah, so here's the best way to put it. A lot of people in the mortgage industry rely on the real estate agents to give them business. And I'm not trying to slam you, Brent, but that's most of the business for mortgage brokers comes from a real estate agent. So that those rulers refer out. XYZ, but I'm looking for the direct client so I can help nurture the relationship with the real estate agents.

Vince: Right. Does that kind of make sense?

Brent: Yeah. So I'm different than most mortgage brokers. Right. And I'm not sitting around waiting for a referral. I'm giving value to my existing clients with the hopes of getting introductions from them. And I would add to that, you know, Vince and I are not the youngest, not the, you know, best looking guys on

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Brent: Instagram, but yeah, Vince has got more hair than I, I'll give you that, you know, but you know, one of the things that comes with being in business this long is we have a database of clients that we worked with and, you know, it's over and over again, that that's what, you know, our business comes from, and it's just because, you know, we've been in business for a long time.

Vince: And so we have a lot of contacts. We've had a lot of, you know, past clients, and that really makes a big difference, you know, doesn't, doesn't do very well on Instagram. I don't think, but yeah. Well, but I mean, you're right. It's the real relationships that we've built because Instagram wasn't around when we were younger.

Brent: So you kind of, I mean, the internet wasn't around when we were younger either. So you kind of, you get used to that real-world connection, but that connection is what everyone's looking for. And some people are trying to kind of fill that gap with Instagram and other things, but there's definitely something to be said for that actual real-world example, particularly when you guys are in a business of locally dealing with people and you're more likely to meet them and shake their hand than they are to have a conversation from Colorado to Pennsylvania like we are today.

Vince: One of the real benefits that you've got with that, that audience and that list and that relationship. I mean, it's reaching out to them in such a personal way and saying, um, hey, we've just brought together this book because we've seen countless people struggle with this. And if we only could have shared some knowledge with them a little bit earlier, it would have saved them a lot of pain.

Brent: So we brought it together in this book and we wanted to get this out to you first. As someone who we've worked with in the past and you know how we work. So here's a copy of it. Would love to get your feedback. If you know anyone who's got questions, this resonates for them. Would love to get you a copy of it so you can give it to them.

Vince: But kind of including that inner circle, just like you did with the divorce attorney. The next ring out now is including that inner circle of clients in the process and really starting to make them feel like, or reinforcing the family type relationship that you've got. A good friend of mine had been on the podcast before as an immigration attorney.

Brent: And we always have the conversation that obviously you can tell by my accent, I've been through the immigration process as well. And you really feel like even more so than, you know, our real estate when we moved house three years ago on the mortgage broker we used at the time. The immigration person is a family member.

Vince: I mean, you can't describe how much emotional connection you have with that person, even though they're just doing their job. It's still so intrinsic to something that's holding up your entire life. But for most people who are in the U.S. already, they fortunately don't have to deal with the immigration system.

Brent: But you guys are that next level down. I mean, I'm guessing maybe, who else would it be? My wife's a kindergarten teacher. She has a very close relationship with her families. I guess if you are unfortunate enough to have a relationship with an oncologist, that's pretty emotionally charged. But you guys are there as helping people through divorce and moving house and remortgaging.

Vince: They're real high stress things. So anyway, I'd like to add one more thing to that because if I have a hundred clients that like, and trust me, if I take 50 percent of those people, odds are they know somebody that's having a marital problem, right? So even 50 percent of that. So, like you said, it's important for us to get the word out to our sphere.

Brent: In a way to where we're not ruffling their pages, but look, this is what we would like to focus on and this is how you can help me. Right. Yeah. And they might be like, I didn't even know you dealt with that. And most of them would say that. I didn't know you dealt with that.

Vince: Yeah. And I think it's also, you know, it's, we're not looking, you know, when we talk to our sphere, it's not necessarily, hey, are you getting divorced? Or, you know, are you in the situation? You know, no, you know, I know, you know, 50 people, right? Out of those 50 people, one of those people will pop into mind like, oh, yeah, I think that, you know, yeah, Mary down the street, right?

Brent: There's someone in my neighborhood who seems to know everything that's going on with everybody. So I think, you know, that when you think about that, it's like, no, it's not, it's not about, you know, I'm not talking to you directly. I'm just saying, if you think about the 50 people that you know, who's the most likely to need this kind of information?

Vince: Yeah, I'm positioning it in a way that who would appreciate this book.

Brent: Right, exactly. There's something in it for them that is hopefully going to be really helpful. And even if they never, I mean, the ideal scenario is that they get the book, it kind of unlocks something for them in their head. They start talking more openly with their family member, and then they never get divorced.

Vince: Or put it off for five years. I mean, in the whole world of karma, that would be a great outcome. And then you know that you've delivered value and the next person isn't going to have that outcome. So you're already the kind of the go-to helpful people in the space.

Brent: Um, I think I need to stop lying to people when we start recording these podcasts and tell them, hey, we'll probably talk for half an hour or so. This is the thing, I mean, when we, we're using books as a, as a jumping-off point as a marketing tool, but the conversation is really not about the book. It's about getting in front of people who you can help.

Vince: And some of the people who you can help will turn into clients, but really it's about adding value back into that world. And there's lots of elements of the conversation that come through. And that's the reason for doing the podcast. Hopefully these calls get people thinking about ways that they can help in their sphere and their group of people and their discipline to, um, I was going to say make the world a better place, but that seems a bit grandiose.

Brent: Let's, uh, make a little section of the world a better place at least. I think Zig Ziglar once said that if you help enough people get what they want, you'll get what you want.

Vince: Right, exactly. And so we, if we just focus on how can I help somebody get what they want?

Brent: Yeah. It's not, you know, if I help enough people, I'll get everything that I'll ever want or need.

Vince: Yeah, and have a much better experience going through life on the path as well. I want to make sure that people can follow along with what you guys are doing and see the book and just, and obviously if they're in Colorado, reach out to you guys. So what's a good website? In fact, actually we had this before we jumped on the call.

Brent: So I'm going to tell you what a good website is and it's redivorce.com. So RE for divorce. Real estate, realestate divorce.com, um, I'll make sure that there's links to it in the show notes. So as people are listening on a podcast player or on the website, they can just click below.

Vince: And then I'll also link to both of your LinkedIn profiles as well. And that's always a good place for connections. Anything else as we wrap anything that, uh, I was going to say anything that we didn't cover, but I think we covered a lot, but anything else before we wrap up?

Brent: No, I really think that, you know, for us, it's just been a blast. I would tell you that too.

Vince: Um, you know, Brent and I work together really well, but writing this book has just been, we've had a blast kind of putting it together, figuring things out.

Brent: And, you know, we bounce ideas off each other. Um, it's been fun and that's not at all what I expected this to be. I thought this was going to be torture.

Vince: I saw he's nice.

Brent: Yeah. Well, you know, dealing with Vince is torture enough as it is, but it was a good torture. And this is like that rapport, the opportunities that we've all got to kind of do, do a project with someone who's a friend. And there's an excuse to work, an excuse to kind of have a chat and do something that's fun.

Vince: I mean, again, that makes the day goes quicker.

Brent: It does, because I guarantee you this, if Brent hadn't followed up with me once, twice a day, it's like, Oh, I'm getting to that. Oh, I'm getting to that. And vice versa. It's like, we did have fun with it. It was a lot of fun. It's a serious topic, but we still had fun.

Vince: Coming up with the information in the data, right? I think that's a takeaway that hopefully people will get as I listen to more and more of these is because you guys are talking about the project is fun and an opportunity to collaborate with people who you might not have had a conversation in that way.

Brent: Someone else a couple of weeks ago was saying that they were going through the process because they were forced to sit down and think about it in a little bit more of an orchestrated way. Then they thought about other business elements that the conversation would have just never popped up, nothing to do directly with the book, but it was just a way of thinking and framing things that they hadn't thought about before.

Vince: So, yeah, there's definitely a lot of benefits of going through the process.

Brent: Um, guys, again, just thanks for your time. I think this opportunity to share your journey and your story with other people will hopefully get their wheels spinning a little bit and think about it. And I'm really interested to see as the book gets towards completion and what you guys do with it and the stories that you start getting back, be really great to circle back in a few months and talk about what's become of it and the stories that you've got after it's out there in the world.

Vince: So thank you everyone.

Brent: Thanks for listening and we'll catch you all in the next one.

Vince: Very much for having us. We appreciate it, and we appreciate all the help that you've given us in bringing this book to fruition. Because, you know, an idea is one thing, and be able to get it to the end, that's a whole nother story, and we appreciate everything that you at 90 Minute Books have done for us.

Brent: Uh, well, I appreciate it. It's always nice to hear, and the more we can do to help people facilitate and get their ideas out there, the better, so, yeah, it's been great all round. Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. We will catch you later.

Vince: Sounds good. Thank you.