In this episode of the Book More Show, I sit down with estate planning attorney Matt Ferry to discuss how he strategically uses an easy-to-understand book to transform client relationships and position himself as an expert in his field.

Matt shares his journey from a small law firm to establishing his successful practice focused on estate planning and elder law. He explains how writing a concise book helped initiate important client conversations, simplify complex topics, and build credibility. 

We delve into the motivations for creating an educational book in the financial industry and how narrowing broad subjects can target specific markets.

Matt discusses using storytelling to make complex concepts relatable and leveraging constraints to provide the right level of information. He also offers practical examples of how marketing the book in different formats, such as webinars and podcasts, can empower professionals to effectively nurture client engagement. 

As client meetings evolve post-COVID, Matt provides valuable insights. He highlights the importance of embracing technology and subtleties like reducing anxiety through guidance.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

1. In this episode, Matt Ferri, an estate planning attorney from Michigan, shares his journey from working at a small law firm to establishing his own practice specializing in estate planning and elder law since 2010.

2. Matt discusses the creation of his book, which serves as a cornerstone for client education by simplifying complex estate planning topics and initiating important conversations.

3. We explore the strategic motivations behind writing a book within the financial industry, including targeting specific markets and using storytelling to make educational content more relatable.

4. Matt explains how creating user-friendly materials can engage clients and build lasting relationships, emphasizing the importance of beneficial constraints in delivering the right information at the right time.

5. We delve into how Matt leverages his book to build credibility, nurture client relationships, and serve as a versatile tool in his marketing efforts, including distribution through referral partners and workshops.

6. Matt highlights the value of using physical books during initial meetings to add credibility and streamline the path to client acquisition, noting how referencing the book can build trust.

7. We discuss the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on client engagement, noting the shift to digital tools and the increased tech-savviness of older generations.

8. Matt shares insights into reducing customer anxiety and strategically guiding clients through their journey, using the book to offer additional content and small actionable steps.

9. We touch on the unexpected revelations that come from creating a manuscript, including the challenge of stepping back from technical details to share a broader story.

10. The episode concludes with a discussion on the value of community and referrals, particularly within professional networks, and provides resources for further connection.

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Matt Ferri:
Website: Life Focus Planning
LinkedIn: Matthew Ferri

TRANSCRIPT

(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Matt: Our book is available to the other professionals a lot of times to hand out when somebody runs into that conversation have you started your estate plan yet? Here's a book from someone we work with. If you want to get started, you know it gives a good introduction.

 Stuart: Right.

Matt: Great source of credibility. That way right, we have a small book, not too intimidating to sit down and read, to scan through hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the book more show.

Stuart: It's Stuart Bell here and joined today by Matt Ferry. Matt, how you doing, buddy?

Matt: I'm great. How are you doing, buddy? I'm great, how are you doing?

Stuart: today Stuart, yeah, fantastic, thank you. I'm excited to share this story with people. The kind of opportunity to get something written that's for this single target audience that starts a conversation in a particular way is. I spend all day talking to people about that kind of thing and it's so exciting to see other people jump on board with the idea and then kind of maximize it in the way that you have and create something that's out there being used. So excited to share that with people. But why don't we start give people a bit of background about you and the practice there and what you guys do?

Matt: Absolutely Well first of all, again, thank you, stuart, for allowing me to be on the show. I'm looking forward to it today. Again, thank you, stuart, for allowing me to be on the show. I'm looking forward to it today. And some more about myself. Obviously, I am an estate planning attorney. I have been in this world for over let's see since 2008,. Right, time flies by fast here it does right.

So, yep, licensed attorney in the state of Michigan. We have colleagues and friends throughout the country, but we're just licensed in Michigan. But it's been a fun, fun journey, fun times and excited to talk more about how we got through this process and use our book.

Stuart: Fantastic. So were you in estate planning from the beginning, or were you in a different area of law first and then kind of transitioned into it?

Matt: That's a great question. So we started, and I started particularly working for another small law firm and then ventured out on my own shortly thereafter and, for the first couple of years, did a few different things as we learned and as I decided how I wanted to proceed with the rest of my career, in the sense as to how I like helping people, and I found that estate planning and this type of what we do has been great pretty much since 2010. I've been doing almost exclusively estate planning and what we call elder law.

Stuart: Right, it's so interesting. We've got a relatively big footprint with people in the similar industry and I think kind of it comes from having success and then word spreads and then other people have the idea of starting off something, answering a relatively small but useful question in a way that's accessible and adding value. When you think about estate planning, it's one of those things where everyone's got a kind of a general reckon of what it is, but there's so many nuances and details. So writing something that helps kind of educate and start that conversation, it's just a really accessible way of introducing yourself. So the idea of writing a book did that come from someone else that you'd seen do it? Was there a pressing question that you wanted to get out there? What was the background to this activity?

Matt: For this. Actually, it was something that we were considering doing. Another colleague in the financial industry had done a book before, and one of the organizations that I was in and involved with very much so had highly spoken well of 90-minute books, got us introduced and it was pretty much a good story from there on out. It's, it's. It's a it's. It's a fun, easy way to be able to create and write your book definitely I wasn't the uh wasn't the best at homework as a kid.

Stuart: So anyone who gives me projects to do in my own time or things that aren't kind of core that that matrix of important versus urgent. The urgent stuff always crowds out the important stuff. So trying to make it as straightforward as possible. So the book that you wrote was Keeping Control. The ideas that are in it, the introductions to those conversations, talk a little bit about the choice of the market and the choice of which pieces to include and not include. I'm always interested because, as we're, as we've been in business for any length of time, the subjects that we could write about are almost endless. Um, but narrowing it down to that one, that's the the pressing conversation at the moment I'm always interested to what makes people choose their subject as opposed to, or this particular subject as opposed to anything else that they could have written about yeah, for us we have a pretty tailored market, that you know it's a.

Matt: it can be a very broad category, right, everyone needs estate planning. But from those you shrink it down to who we particularly like to work with. Who do we find that we work well with and how we operate? More people get more out of what we service, how we service them and what values we provide. So you know, for us we work with busy professionals and business owners. We're trying to help them avoid leaving a mess behind and for that the book is a great introduction. It provides them just enough information. We're all busy, we all have limited attention spans, pulled in several directions. Nobody wants to read a thousand page book on the subject they need to know okay, what are some high level things.

The great part about what way we developed our book was to maybe make sure that we can share stories. People want to hear stories. They want to hear what worked, what didn't, why, how can it apply to my situation and how can I do or not do what has been done before in other people's lives, right? So that's kind of how we started, with some basic education. Again, a lot of our introduction to whomever we're meeting is education. First, people need to understand what can we do and how can we do it, what role do we play, what role and how does their family play a part of it and how we can work together to create this for you. So that's an easy start with the book.

Stuart: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we're not writing books to what's the best way of describing it. People aren't requesting a copy of the book necessarily because they want the knowledge that's contained within it. It's almost they're requesting it to get the outcome that the book promises. So now, obviously that's not completely true, because we want to educate them and help them in their direction. But it's not like they're going off to then sit an elder law exam or pass some financial qualification.

So it's not that level of traditional book writing where the knowledge is the key thing. It's almost the certainty of the journey, or the reassurance that they're in the right place or thinking in the right direction, or aurance that they're in the right place or thinking in the right direction, or a revelation that they're not thinking in the right direction, and here's a better way of thinking about it. But your point about the stories that to allow someone to see themselves in a position or to position their experience in the context of estate planning in your example, the stories help almost more than the, than the words, the descriptions of the techniques or the rules or the guidelines that you're giving them, because it just adds color and depth, I think, and someone can see themselves in the before position and then in the after position to really get that that uh feel that they're moving in the right direction.

Matt: Absolutely, and the legal profession lends itself to having people glaze over with the technical.

Stuart: We're far too easy and a lot of what we work on in our office and as I've worked on throughout the years, is trying to keep it at the client level know what they're you, know what they need to know, be able to provide more depth and detail, as some clients want more, some clients not less, but being able to kind of fill that in as we go and as we learn who fits right right and actually that's such a great point as well, because when we think one of the in the book blueprint scorecard the book that I wrote to help people with their eight building blocks to create bring the book together, one of the in the book Blueprint Scorecard the book that I wrote to help people with their eight building blocks to bring the book together one of those is the idea of beneficial constraints, and it was the one that has the most it's the least obvious of all of the eight steps, because people don't automatically think about constraints when they go into a project.

They're kind of thinking of more, not less. Into a project they're kind of thinking of of more, not less. But this idea of constraining yourself to the subject matter is obviously one constraint because otherwise you go off on a, on a tangent, but thinking in terms of constraint as okay, I want to deliver the right information at the right time, not that the other information is important or doesn't exist or could be a whole conversation later, but the right point at the right time. Do you find that a lot with people as they come in through the door, as you're on zoom with them, more and more these days it is an element of kind of um getting the feel for how much detail they want and kind of watching their eyes to make sure that they don't glaze over. Is that more of an issue, um, these days, as people's attention span perhaps gets less or their attention is drawn elsewhere?

Matt: I think it really depends For us. We in our introductory process, you know the book plays a part of it, but even as our first meetings get going, it's still very high level.

We're explaining concepts, we're answering questions, and so we can tailor the conversation as people have more pointed questions on a certain subject or a certain area. So we're really able to adjust as necessary but still keep it as a. You know, within those constraints, right, most clients I'm looking to do this right, because we're not a broad firm, we don't do multiple practice areas, we just have a couple and that's all we focus on. So people know what they're getting into when they're coming to see us.

Stuart: Yeah, so that definitely helps. Right, they're there for a particular thing. At least the conversation is in the same ballpark. It's not that they're off on very different tangents, it's you kind of talking about the same thing.

Matt: Unless I get off on the tangents about life. Right, we talk about life.

Stuart: Right, which that happens a lot as well.

Matt: But that's still part of the journey and part of the process, right? I mean, we're all humans, we're all wanting to learn and figure out how we work together and connect. So that's the fun part. And that's the- look at a state plan and you go, it could be pretty dull and boring maybe, and very like regimented. So if I don't get the human interaction part of it, then what's the fun?

Stuart: right, exactly, and it's the discipline and the, the speciality and the knowledge that you bring.

It's kind of in between the color, in between the, the words or the lines. Sometimes I hear people say that they're concerned about writing too much or giving everything away in the book, and I mean the first response is kind of hey, don't flatter yourself. If you were going to write that kind of book already, you would be an author, not whatever you were doing, because that's a very big project and difficult to do. So that's probably not going to happen. But be with everything that we're doing. You're in estate planning, whether you're an attorney in another law practice or financial advisor or florist or outsourcing company or whatever the speciality is. People aren't raising their hand as interested in starting a conversation with you because they want to do it themselves. There's a small minority of people who would do that and they're not your clients anyway.

It's the color that you bring between the words. It's the sitting down with someone and talking about the estate planning details but then hearing something that resonates and make you realize that oh, actually it's this that they really need rather than that that we were originally talking about. That's the thing that moves the conversation forwards and brings them from a prospect to a client. So I think it's a um. It's an unnecessary concern and almost a step of procrastination, worrying that you're going to give too much in the book. Much better to give the right level of of detail at the right time, knowing that it's just the stepping stone to to the next level of detail at the right time, knowing that it's just the stepping stone to the next part of the conversation. Why don't you talk a little bit about how are you using the book at the moment then? So we've had it for a little while now out there in multiple different places. Give people a few examples about how it's kind of getting in front of people and leading them to getting on your calendar.

Matt: Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. For us we have the book available in a couple of different formats and a couple of different ways. You know, as clients begin the journey, depending on how they find us right. We work with other professionals. Our book is available to the other professionals a lot of times to hand out when somebody runs into that conversation. Have you started your estate plan yet? Here's a book from someone we work with. If you want to get started, you know it gives a good introduction, great source of credibility. That way. Right, we have a small book, not too intimidating to sit down and read, to scan through. So being able to use it with you know what we call, you know referral partners, things of that nature that's been a great source. Having it electronically, we can send it out, so it's on our website. People go and find it and request downloads that way. And then the other thing that we've used it at is at even workshops or webinars, being able to offer a giveaway for people to get contact information and those things.

Stuart: Right, that idea of using it as an asset that supports other things that you do such a great opportunity.

I was talking to someone yesterday and we were talking about the touch points into the funnel, the touch points into the world, and whether you're using a book, which is then backed up by the webinar, or using the webinar that's backed up by the book, whether you're using the book as's backed up by the book, whether you're using the book as a lead generation tool and then people eventually come in and you're using it to run through as a reminder of the conversations that they've already seen, or people come in for the first time and use it there in the meeting as a credibility builder and a reinforcement of the the things that you're talking about.

This idea that once it's created, it sits in, it can be used in multiple different ways. I was using an analogy that broke down very quickly of kind of like a f craft carrier that's got lots of different assets that get deployed and that, but they all come back to the, the mothership, the aircraft carrier, um, but yeah, this idea, that the idea, the conversation is consistent all the way through, but it just builds on itself the referral partner piece, and then I'll jump back to the webinar actually. But the referral partner piece how did you find that as a conversation, kind of saying to people where you've already got some kind of relationship, that hey, we've also got this tool that we can use and it's a great tool that you can give to your clients and add value? Was that an easy conversation and they were appreciative of the extra kind of collateral to build that value with clients? Or was there a kind of a lack of understanding about what you were trying to do?

Matt: No, usually I've, oftentimes will bring along a copy of the book with me, if I've, you know, if I'm first meeting with someone new, you know you bring, bring a copy along. Hey, I you know we've had this book. Check it out, you know. If you like it or you know, whatever you know just provides a little introduction to us. I haven't had a bad experience yet, um, and I've always had a few people say can I get more books because I want to be able to hand them out to clients. There's more of the conversation that we have, so most people don't have a problem at all. Again, we're not pushing it, we're not looking to sell it traditionally.

And so it's just information and it's there as information and help the learning and education. So most of the people that we work with like it and find it as a great tool.

Stuart: Right, because it's such a subtle way of making an introduction by completely adding value. It's not like you're leaving a business card on the desk and say, hey, give someone my business card, it's adding value in a. I often say that the fact that some information is brought together in the pages of a book and it's on dead trees and some glue down the side of it, the fact that it's in that format, carries so much more reciprocity or credibility or authority than exactly the same words on a web page somewhere that it just oils the conversations and and makes things flow a lot faster.

Matt: yeah, it's very much so and even if they like, like I said, sometimes people don't even read the whole book, they just want to skim it or take a look at it right right it serves as a useful reminder yeah, exactly.

Stuart: And again it goes back to this point that most people are requesting a copy because what they want is the outcome, the, the promise of the solution. They don't actually want is the outcome, the promise of the solution. They don't actually want the information itself, albeit the information is a useful conveyor to get to the outcome. But it's not like someone. The job of work isn't the entertainment of the words on the page, it's the knowledge to get closer to the solution at the end. It's why we put so much focus on the table of contents. As the kind of signposts, the roadmaps to hey, something on the cover caught my attention. We want them to move to the call to action on the back, and that table of contents is the signpost. So even if they don't read it, like I say, most people skip. It's yes, yes, yes, yes, okay, here's an easy next step to take. It's uh, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, okay, here's an easy next step to take. Absolutely, I agree on the um.

You talk about the webinar and then using it in person. Do you yet run through it? I, most of my meetings are with people on zoom rather than in person. Just nature of business these days, um, so sometimes it's a little bit difficult. I kind of often, when holding the book up and then kind of trying to point it at the camera and getting it to zoom in, I really should get more. I've got the PDF of it here, I could just screen share. But I'm always forgetting that and kind of physically drawn back towards pointing to something, because what I would do if we were in the meeting, the book, this particular book, is the framework to the way that we operate and suggest that people create their books. So there, eight steps. In there there's almost everything that I say is backed up by something that's in here. So by pointing to it there's an element of um, reassurance or reinforcement maybe of the point that I'm trying to make because it's in in written words.

I sometimes talk about the example of we did a podcast a couple of months ago with paul ross, who's a podiatrist, uh, wrote a super short book called my damn toe hurts. That was um. Every time I refer to on the podcast, I always remember that I forget to look up what the condition is, and I promised myself that I'll check for next time. So, but next time comes around, I keep forgetting what the condition is.

But anyway, he wrote this little book on this condition. It's kind of like a non-surgical solution. If you've tried everything else, then hey, you should really try this. And what he found is that because he had written some things in the book and then when he was saying them to people for the first time in person because they'd already read to it if he pointed to it in the book, he previously would get some degree of pushback or questioning or there was a belief element that needed to be closed, whereas using the book now, that rarely happened, because people already were predetermined to the solution or they'd read the words already. So when he was saying them, they were hearing words they've seen written in a book, albeit it was his book. So do you find the same?

Matt: being able to refer to something that people already have a context for kind of speeds up that process. Well, it's interesting you say that because it makes it more real, it's tangible right and so for people to be able to actually pick something up in our digital age nowadays they actually have something uh tangible and you can put your hands on. It definitely helps. Uh provide that kind of uh credibility is already there, should already be there, but you know, it just makes it that much easier.

Stuart: Right and reinforces it. In a world where there's attention, as we said before, is short, people are on a kind of a yes, yes, yes, journey. Yes, I kind of want this solution. Yes, I believe that I'm in the right place towards getting to that meeting and then eventually becoming the client, if you can layer on those yeses and something physical, just as you said. In such a digital world, it's a differentiator and a reinforcing point to one of those yeses. Yep, you mentioned the webinars that you guys do, bringing people through the process and educating them a little bit more. How close. I've obviously seen the book, but I haven't seen the webinar. You guys to bringing people through the process and and educating them a little bit more. How close. I've obviously seen the book, but I haven't seen the webinar. How close is the outline and the structure of the webinar to the book and any crossover points? Was that intentional or coincidental

Matt: uh, more coincidental. Some of them are intentional.

Stuart: We don't actually use the book as an outline for the webinars we've done, um, not good or bad or indifferent, just hadn't uh coordinated or gone that far to do that yeah, so that's actually yeah, maybe I'll take that away from today as to seeing how how that would work right um and yeah, that's perfect and I mentioned it because, again, within the last couple of weeks or so, I had a conversation where this was kind of the focus of the conversation and they their book had two or three points in it that were referred to in webinar slides or they were doing like live in-room meeting type things, like small group meetings. So there were two or three things within the book that was very specific and and it was really like pictures and diagrams. They just use the same assets. So we jumped off talking about that. But as we were getting further into it, it was really this idea of topic bridging and the webinar was a done and dusted thing and the book was a done and dusted thing. Both of them can be tweaked and tailored over time. These things aren't etched in stone, so they're all movable. But in the short term we came to the realization that you don't even need to do that.

This idea of topic bridging, of something is written about in the book in one format and something is talked about in the in the webinar in another format.

But we're broadly talking about the same thing. It's just different examples or coming to it from two different directions. But a quick sentence bridges those things together and it immediately amplifies whatever the original point was because it's backed up in a different format examples and the credibility. So I could definitely see a example where, as you're going through the webinar, giving people a copy of the book, and in the webinar, when you're talking about this particular element, tying that back to a story that's in the book. Even though it's not exactly the same, it's broadly the same. Uh, we're talking about, um, the need to make sure that I'm going to kill it on the example again but making sure that the will is up to date. There's actually a great story in the book. In chapter three we were talking about probate and then bob had this realization, as we're going through the probate conversation, that the will wasn't up to date and it's such a small opportunity to bridge it together, but in people's minds it just layers on.

Matt: This again, reinforcement that they're in the right place and the next yes is the one to take yep, so yeah, correct, and we have woven those, some of those shared stories together, for sure, and some of the concepts definitely, uh, apply to both. But you know, yeah, that's great. I had one more way that would even use the book. But go ahead, sergey.

Stuart: I was just going to say that it's just the idea of you saying that, weaving the stories together. It's an assets created here and assets created there. And as you start off talking about the book, you do elder law, you're not doing other legal cases, you're not doing financial services, you're not coming to paint the house. I mean it's on subject. So the bit they just the everyone's in the room to talk about that type of thing. So we also bring these assets together. And the same with the email sequence, once someone opts in to get a copy of it or after they've been in for the meeting. The anchoring the, the main points together in in those further touch points. Yeah, such a great opportunity. Yeah, and it's funny how you talk about the emails.

Matt: It's one of the things that we also did is we added the, you know, an image of the book and a link to get the book and our email signatures as well right, and so it's it's funny that that comes up all the time. Oh, you've written a book, I see that. Oh, yeah, right, it's a nice conversation starter yeah, yeah, exactly.

Stuart: And people, there's a, just as we started off saying, there's an extra credibility that goes with bringing it together on dead trees as opposed to anything else. There's an authority that naturally goes along with it. Um, the, we've got another. I think we call it like a field report. It's not quite big enough to be a book, but it's a quick guide on buying things to do once your book's completed. And one of the first things and this actually came together because back in COVID, like in the early days of 2020, I was reaching out to a whole load of past clients saying, hey, we're all at home, we've got some extra time. Zoom is suddenly a thing that everyone knows about, so let's jump on a quick call and we'll. We'll just check in with what you're doing.

And from those 20 or 30 calls, there were five or six things that really came out that I had assumed were low-hanging fruit, that everyone would have done, but actually the minority of people had done them. A lot of people had gone on to more complicated things but had missed these basic things. So things like updating your, your LinkedIn profile or other social media places, making sure it's on the website the amount of people who didn't even have it on the website was crazy. Email signature including it in there. All of these places where you are already having the book in there and an easy, friction-free way of getting a copy of it. It's one of those things that has no extra. You don't have to do any extra work to have that out there and you don't know when it's going to intersect and at the right time, when someone's got that conversation going on in their head yeah, exactly, and that's it's a great, great reminder for everyone as to all the different ways and uses that you can have right, it's almost worth doing.

I think this is in that field report kind of this idea of do a 50 minute focus finder or like the pomodoro technique, whatever you want to call it, just give yourself 20 to 50 minutes on a timer and just start jotting down all the places where you think you could use it and just have the commitment just to keep writing for that period of time. And it's surprising, almost like a free writing exercise, surprising how your mind once it's kind of got past the resistance of being put to work for a little bit, but you kind of get into that flow and there's really it only takes one or two interesting ideas to pop out of that exercise and the returns are 10 years in the future you're still getting some of those returns yeah, absolutely we talked a bit about the online interaction and engagement with people.

How much physical world stuff do you do these days? I know it's kind of changed for everyone in the last couple of years, but do you find yourself out at events and meeting people face-to-face more or less than before? Yeah?

Matt: Uh, that's a good question. Now, you know, predominantly right before COVID we were all doing mostly in-person things, in-person networking events, a lot of that. Obviously, that changed during COVID. It seems to be coming back more and more so now in-person gatherings, meetings, those types of things. And then there's even a lot of the clients now they're actually quite happy to be back in person, at least for what I do. Most of the clients want to come and see someone, at least for me and my practice. I know there are other offices that are, you know, hybrid offices. We'll meet. If times or distance sometimes becomes an issue, we'll meet, meet virtually. But a lot of clients will still want to eventually come in in person and sit down and talk yeah, I think that is the benefit of being forced to be digital.

Stuart: I mean, it just accelerated that growth so much over the last couple of years. So at least now you've got I mean, we've worked with so many people where digital just wasn't an option before. Really Everything they did was based around in-person stuff and it was very difficult to try and put a funnel or a framework in place that didn't rely on someone coming in. But now, having been forced to do that for a couple of years, the opportunity now to have a digital track where that works or an in-person track where that works, it's um, yeah, it just gives so much more options to meet the clients where they are, and I think the books in both circumstances have a great opportunity to just accelerate and amplify that conversation a little bit yeah, that's certainly the case, and it's even expanded.

Matt: Uh, more individuals and even different age groups. It's expanded their ability to use technology.

Stuart: Right yeah.

Matt: You know, we traditionally thought that the younger generations were really technologically savvy. But I found and I've had 99 year olds that were good with technology. So, you surprise you and you go, oh this was great, because then they can use those tools. And so obviously during COVID, some covid, some families best way to communicate sped up on that trend so the grandparents could talk to the grandkids and yeah yeah.

Stuart: Well, when we look back, even the sort of podcast has been going for probably a bit longer than I can't remember now. But the early episodes I mean probably up until around covid was all audio because the headache and the overhead of trying to do it on video we could probably do it ourselves because we've got a vested interest in doing it, so that would be fine. But to try and have guests do anything video-based was very, very difficult. Skype was flaky, facetime wasn't really an option to record anything. Some bespoke solutions were very expensive, so it really just made it more difficult. Um, oh sorry, made it much more easier than the difficult situation previously. Just thinking about the, the in-person situation, the? Um. Usually when we're meeting people in person it falls into two groups the kind of networking and new people or the accelerating existing relationship by meeting people who you know already. Another option for the in-person stuff is kind of like the broadcast type meeting, the meeting where you stood up in front of a room. I always like that.

Back to Meetup, the Meetup platform.

I lived in London before I was moved across to the US and London was fantastic because throw a stone on any subject and there would be a Meetup just down the road.

I ran the I Love Marketing Meetup in London for a number of years and attended and was a guest at like book clubs and technology clubs and all of these different places where people were guests at like book clubs and technology clubs and all these different places where people were and I almost wish that there was the opportunity. This was kind of before the business was established but I almost wish there was an opportunity to still be that environment now because the book as a talking point would be a great jumping off point for conversations in those environments. We worked with another financial advisor who did a lot of work in yacht clubs and would use his book Yachter's Guide to Early Retirement as a jumping off point for the conversation within those community groups because they would do presentations every couple of weeks to their members. So do you find is there any opportunities like that local to you, where there's an opportunity to use the book to share more value in a community group where there's an interested kind of crossover group of people?

Matt: Yeah, and I think we've done it in a sense with different, I guess, professionals or categories that have already, you know, similar position or similar thought. Similar position or similar thought. We were working with a you know pre-need planning professional in that sense of you know, are we planning for our funerals, are we planning for our burials?

And the estate planning conversation is just an extension of that as well, and so we were. You know we provided it at that point too for that type of meeting and group. You know it's it's same thing that works with, right here, your financial planning, your accounting people, everything that deals with financial. That is another.

Stuart: You know it's one of the crucial components of estate planning is making it sure it all works together yeah those groups all kind of go together yeah, yeah, there's an inevitability about all of those kind of from a customer point of view, a recipient's point of view, it's. It's all of those kind of from a customer point of view, recipients point of view, it's. It's. All of those things are going to happen, whether you, whether you like or not. A few weeks ago I can't remember whether it was a podcast or not, but I was having a conversation with someone who's in the business transition um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, exit planning, exit planning.

Matt: Thank you, yeah, yeah, the exit planning and that and that goes great. I mean, that's the same conversation in an extension.

Stuart: Right, it's your business estate plan right, exactly, and they made the same point that you did. This is going to happen. It can either happen in your control or it will happen out of your control. So I mean might as well make the most of of the one that you've got control over the feedback from clients as they read the book, or at least skim the book or get the book, using that as a jumping off point for conversations either right at the top of the funnel with new people or in the funnel as those relationships are developing. Do you have any feedback from recipients of the book whether they found certain points valuable or insightful or this encouraged them to take a step? Is there any feedback that you get it being out there for a little while now?

Matt: Yeah, I've heard both things. I've heard a lot of people that were interested in certain concepts we talked about in the book that we introduced to them and they're like, oh, I never thought about that or it brings back, like I said, they relate to a story. And they said, oh, I experienced something similar with my family you know, with a parent or a relative and they go.

Okay, I understand and I see the whole picture and I get a little bit more of a greater perspective than just that one thing that's what I love about this type of book so much.

Stuart: I mean a because obviously it's my company. I love it because I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't love it. So it's a bit a bit of an obvious thing to say. But the real difference between a traditional book, which is the majority of people won't do, even if they've got the idea to do it, they won't because it just doesn't come up on the radar enough above the day-to-day work. So the ability, the fact that this model allows people to do something, is a great thing. But the other thing, from the recipient's point of view, from the reader's point of view, it just makes it so much more likely that they're going to consume it.

Because I've got a shelf full of books here and in fact in the God in the last three weeks I just ordered a couple of books, all of which I really really want to read Gary Vaynerchuk's Day Trading Attention just arrived. There was Noah Hagen's Million Dollar Weekends just arrived. There's another one that's on the shelf there that I can't quite see from here and I can't even remember what it was. But again, I really quite see from here and I can't even remember what it was. But again. I really I pressed the order button on Amazon because I really, really, really want this information in my head, but am I going to actually get to read it? I don't know.

Something that's much smaller like this that talks about one subject, something like your book that talks about the key points to secure in the future, to having control over that estate planning element, it's easy to consume and the reader is much more likely to do it. And when you think about those conversations that you have with people who approach you saying I saw this idea, I want to talk more about it, or this is an idea that I read and it resonated, so let's drill into that a little bit more your ability to get to that same point in the relationship with them without the book. It's very difficult because there's 25 I mean, what's the average? I don't know. I read slow. My wife could burn to something like this in two minutes, but I read quite slow. So 25, 30 minutes of reading something like that and understanding the beginnings of the conversation to be able to get to that same point in relation very difficult, because you just can't download that much information into someone's head in a relatively short conversation.

Matt: Yep, and that's a perfect way to explain it, and it's a lot easier for someone to be able to not have to be focused on somebody else and what they're saying and trying to sort it out where they can read it. Take their time comprehend it. And I kind of laugh with you as well. It depends on their reading speed. Some will get through it faster than others.

Stuart: I'm saying that in the last week or two three books arrived and I think I've maybe gotten to the first chapter of one of them. I think in the same time my wife's been to the library three times and kind of burned 300-page books I understand that feeling.

Matt: I can sympathize with you.

Stuart: I wonder if something else happens as well, which I never really thought about until this conversation is. When we're in a dialogue and it happens on the podcast as well, there's a even trying to be an active listener in it, and I haven't done this for 180 episodes now. So, really trying to listen actively, listen with the intentionality of hearing the words that are coming back, there's still a small part of your brain which is consumed with okay, at some point I'm gonna have to say something and what's the thing I'm gonna to say next? So you're always listening and in a client situation, you're always listening, trying to pick out the things that you need to pick out in order to move it forward, because it's not just a conversation, it's a conversation with a purpose. So I hadn't particularly thought about it before.

But I also wonder if part of the benefit of the book is that someone can read it purely from the point of view of reading and consuming it. They're not. They're listening to the same words that you're saying, thinking about what their answer is going to be, because it's it's one directional. It takes the pressure off them. They can be in fully absorbing mode and not needing to be in about to respond mode. So I hadn't thought about that before. But I think that also has an element which again accelerates their understanding no, it's a great use.

Matt: And I know sometimes people still think you know, oh, where's the catcher, where's the hook? If they're in person and they're meeting with us and saying you know they're trying, you don't want it. We're not in the necessarily looking to sell our services, but they know they're here to. Actually, you know we're going to be hired at some point or not. So it's kind of again that little bit of a cat and mouse game right, because it's not there exactly exactly people come with expectations and anxieties around the things that are going on.

Stuart: I was on a call just before this one. It was a marketing mastermind type call, so we meet regularly and and kind of pull apart other marketing pieces. So the person who was presenting today said, okay, so let's look at this page and it was a page from years ago. They were using that as an example and on the form, um, it said something along the lines of like name, email address, phone number, there was a couple of other questions and then the button at the bottom rather than kind of get an instant quote or download now or things like that that we'd use now, it was something like an assistant will get right back to you, or representative will get right back to you. And we were talking about the anxiety that that brings in, because the words are hey, you'll, you'll move on to the next step next. But anyone reading the words a representative will get back to you immediately. Subconsciously, that's just. Oh, my phone's about to ring for the next two weeks until I say yes to someone or I've got a ghost, all unknown numbers, because I don't actually want to talk to this person. So that anxiety and the the psychological things that are stopping people in this yes, journey. We want to keep them moving down that along that point to the in the in the scorecard book, I think I've, or in the. There's QR codes in here that link to videos where I go into a little bit deeper. So I think it's on one of the videos.

I've got a table, a straight line chart of the relationship, capital versus the, the level of the ask, and you can't ask people to do too much before they've got a relationship. If you're going back to the partner example that you were given before, if you hadn't given the book to a referral partner and use that as the introduction point, if instead it was a business card, or if it was instead, oh well, just tell the people to book a call with me. Or, even better, if you can book a call for them and then I'll just deal with them. All of the friction to the relationship doesn't have anywhere near the right amount of capital. And just finishing that thought it's one of the things I really like about your book. So the back cover when we're talking to people, we talk about the next steps.

So we always suggest, unless people have got a very strong opinion, we always suggest that people include three next steps where they can take that build that relationship capital even further. So one is go and consume more stuff somewhere. Two is take a small step like a checklist or an assessment. And then three is schedule a meeting. That's for the people where they do feel that they've passed that threshold to jump on. So your second step is grab a copy of the three estate planning mistakes checklist. So when you think about that as the journey capital, someone's received a copy of the book. Yes, they're in the right place, but they're not quite the point of a meeting being able to download something that's called the estate planning mistakes checklist. There's no um, there's no baggage associated with that. It doesn't feel like they're going to walk into the office and then someone's going to lock the door behind them and they're going to right, let's sit down and talk about it no traps.

Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly so anyway. Just again, another illustration of why I really love the positioning that you took with the book in terms of the single target market that you knew very clearly who it was you were talking to. The content really delivers value as to where they are in their journey and what the logical next steps are, and it it shares those stories and helps people see themselves in that future solution. And then the next steps are very, very step stoning that relationship towards. Hey, here's multiple things that you can do and here's lots of ways that we can engage with you until you're at the point where we really now need to personalize this for you and come in and when they walk through the door, their relationship capsules through the roof and they know like and trust you already to a certain degree. They're predisposed to want to do what you were about to tell them to do, and it just accelerates it all so much.

Matt: Absolutely yeah.

It really does help and it leads into it, and even just in general with the book, versus, like we're saying in person, for us in a professional service, right, there's a and certainly what we do. There can be a little bit of that apprehension. You know, it's like I'm, you know I'm meeting with an attorney, so, oh, I don't know. And so being able to kind of break that barrier down a little bit and say, well, you know, you know, yes, we know what we're doing and yes, barrier down a little bit and say, well, you know, yes, we know what we're doing and yes, we're a little bit more skilled to this, what we're doing. But at this point, hey, let's have a conversation. Being able to relate to the book, relate to the stories, helps.

Stuart: Actually, that's a great point as well, because there is an element of you know, like being invited to a chat with a headmaster. I mean, no matter how old you are, the last engagement that you had with a headmaster or principal of any school I'm using british terms and the principal of any school was probably the relationship, the power dynamics within the relationship, was probably very different. So as you're a new parent or as you come into that world, there is a again this psychological baggage that people bring to it attorneys, doctors, teachers, all of these professions. Like when you think, many years ago it was only professional people who were allowed to vote and professional people who are allowed to become mps or politicians. So there is this power dynamic difference. So to be able to bridge that gap because to a certain degree you don't really want that you want people coming in feeling like there's a friendly, you're there, you're there as a partner to them, as a, as a supporting professional, not, uh, not someone that they've got to kind of bank manager, that they've got to kind of doff their cap to um.

So I'd say, with the podcast as well, I'll jump on calls with people who I haven't yet met and they'll say, oh yeah, I've been listening for years and I remember when you said this, or remember when you said that and it's a little bit weird sometimes, kind of still not always used to it, but that idea of just bridging the relationship, starting the conversation, being able to step people forward to get to an outcome that's the best for them and if the best for them is them being completely relaxed, going into it so that they're more open and responsive to the the best ideas that you can give them anyway, so many reasons why bringing the knowledge that's already in your head together in the pages of a book just has such an outsized benefit compared with any other way that you can bring it together. Um, I always say to people when we start these conversations that we'll talk for half an hour and then uh and then wrap up, and it always stick 45 minutes in and time flies. So appreciate, uh, taking so much of your time and I think people will get a lot from this. If they've had any thoughts about writing a book, hopefully, the way that you're using it and what you were able to do is really kind of remind them that it's, it's a project that's, that's within reach to people.

Um, two quick questions to wrap up. Then one was anything through the process that was a surprise or unexpected? I've spoken to people sometimes before and they said the exercise of having to think about it for this period of time has been revealing in certain ways. So anything come up for you.

Matt: And so as you said, we did this a few years ago, so we're going to have to dust off the memory bank here. It's certainly. What was interesting is. What I remember is the process was quite simple and it was great to be able to get set up. I enjoyed it, for, for me, right when we sometimes, as a legal person, we become technical and we want to really focus on the nitty gritty and really kind of get prepared and so, uh, trying to lift myself away from that and be able to share what we want to share have a roadmap to follow. That was good, and I know one of the one of the pitfalls maybe for for someone like myself or the others that are interested in writing books is when you get the manuscript back, so to speak, you can edit that to the cows come home.

Stuart: So you got to be careful I tell you, even owning the company and being able to touch this every single day, if I wanted to, every time I look at it I need to change that or I should fix that, I should fix something else, but no one else spots it that's exactly it.

Matt: So that's kind of you know, you get the perfectionist out of us. Sometimes you go oh no, I need to change that right so that's the kind of the, the big things that I I remember in that little bit of a takeaway yeah, yeah, that's what I like about it as well.

Stuart: It's the idea that I mean we could write all this into a course and give people courses for a complete diy way of doing it. But a, that's a just on the technical front. That's a headache and a pain in the neck and you don't want to deal with it if you don't have to. But B, having someone else to bounce the ideas off, and particularly Christy, who does a lot of that upfront work with people. She's very good on the story side of things and because she's not the technical expert in the skill that you've got her ability to kind of lift it up a level more on the consumer level.

That helps a lot, um, yeah yeah, correct right that was great yeah, yeah, um, okay, so that was the first one and then the second one. Obviously I really want to make sure that people know where they can find out more about what you guys do, for two reasons. One, to kind of follow along and see what you're doing. But I think we've got a number of clients in the Michigan area. So this idea more and more that within our community of clients we've got people who would are those complimentary, non competing businesses. So hopefully there are people out there who are on the same page and there might be some a bigger referral opportunity out there for people. So where's a good people for, where's a good place for people to find out more?

Matt: out there for people. So where's a good people for, where's a good place for people to find out more? You know absolutely our website. Uh, the easiest one is life focus planningcom. That's probably the easiest way to find out more information about us and all uh, all the things that we can do and how we can help perfect, and I'll put your linkedin connection in the show notes as well, just so people can follow through on that.

Stuart: Uh, if they want to make a connection through that um.

As always, I'll put the links, the link, there in the show notes, so as everyone's listening along, they just tap on the podcast player or, if they're on the website, they can follow it through. Matt, again, just want to say thanks for your time. Really appreciate it. It's been. Um, really it's really insightful to see people using it a couple of years down the track and that kind of real world feedback on on what it's really insightful to see people using it a couple of years down the track and that kind of real world feedback on what it's doing. So, again, just thanks for your time today. It's really a pleasure to dive in a little bit deeper.

Matt: Thank you so much. I've appreciated it as well. It's been a great opportunity.

Stuart: Fantastic. Okay, everyone. Well, thanks for listening. As I say, or, as usual, check the show notes for all of the links and then we'll catch.