Today, on the Book More Show, I learned valuable business-building strategies from Lee Ramey's experience when He transformed his cleaning company into a leading mold remediation service. 

He discusses his journey of self-education in the 1980s to become an expert and how overcoming challenges like influencing industry categories helped establish authority. 

We discuss educational materials and how they can empower consumers and validate health concerns, highlighting Lee's commitment to being education-focused rather than sales-driven. 

As someone who did his book with us in the past, We touched on his insights on book publishing, from writing and design to creative marketing tactics, and provided a framework for leveraging expertise through informative content.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

1. I explore the journey of Lee Ramey, who began a cleaning business in 1984 and evolved it into a leading mold remediation service through self-education and industry involvement.

2. Lee shares his experience in getting the Yellow Pages to recognize mold removal as a legitimate category, showcasing his dedication to industry standards.

3. We discuss the importance of educational tools like books and consumer guides in empowering individuals, especially women, to connect health symptoms with indoor environmental issues.

4. Lee talks about the technical challenges and value of writing and publishing a book, highlighting its impact on perceived authority and trustworthiness.

5. We delve into the effectiveness of digital versus printed study materials, emphasizing accessibility, convenience, and the need for updating content to stay relevant.

6. The episode covers the strategy of charging a fee for mold inspections to filter serious clients and the value of providing comprehensive, fact-based reports.

7. We explore creative and guerrilla marketing tactics for promoting a book, including the use of vehicle wraps, QR codes, and strategic placement of promotional materials.

8. Lee discusses the benefits of using speaking engagements and books for business growth and client relationship building, including presenting books in protective sleeves to enhance perceived value.

9. We emphasize the importance of leveraging expertise and experience to engage customers and start meaningful conversations, ensuring resources are actively utilized.

10. Lee shares plans for future projects, including a new book focused on humidity problems for lake owners, underscoring the ongoing value of educational content in business.

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Lee Ramey:
Website: Mold and Mildew Solutions LLC
LinkedIn: Lee Ramey

TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Bookmore Show. It's Stuart Bell here and today joined by Lee Ramey Lee. How's?

Lee:  it going. Oh, excellent, thank you. Thank you for having me on Pleasure.

Stuart:  I'm actually excited for this because I kind of start every episode with a bit of context of how I know the person. And we started off doing episodes just internally and it was often me and Dean or me and Betsy. And then we've done a large number of of author interviews, which is what this is with people who we've worked with. And then we've done a few kind of other companies who who just have a very complementary way of doing business, which have been a few of the recent ones, but with the author ones, I think, just the way that we invite people, we tend to invite people as they're getting towards the end of the process and then we're not good enough at remembering to invite people from a few years ago where they've really got this experience.

So this is what we're talking about today, because you wrote your book a couple of years ago and the way that you're using it is really um, I think this will give a lot of inspiration to other people in the way that they can use it. So we'll get get to all that. But let's start with a bit of context. So why don't you share with everyone kind of what it is that you do in the organization and then we can jump off from there.

Lee:  I started a cleaning business, actually June of 84, so 40 years ago this June and I was doing just, you know, janitorial window cleaning, carpet cleaning, things like that. And as people would ask me to do more things, I would have to go find out how to do it. It wasn't the internet then or you couldn't use YouTube University, so I had to go, you know, ask questions and read books, things like that, and I got pretty good at things. But once I found out there was a science behind cleaning, there was a science behind drying something out that just was the light bulb. You know the inner geek in me just, oh, I like this, I like wine.

And there was a time period in the late 80s, early 90s, that mold started to be a lot in the news and lawyers were involved and basically nobody in the business really wanted to deal with mold because everybody who touched it got sued. But people kept on asking me you know, we got to do this, got to do this, and it actually was. A church member says we got a problem here and could you please just help us out? You know we're not going to sue you, you know, it just just happens.

And so I started searching around and at that time I had to go all over the United States just little pockets of knowledge knew about respirators, knew about filters, knew about mycology, you knew about, you know using, you know what kind of vacuums and so forth. And a lot of this information was a little bit like the asbestos business and there was used some of the same protocols. So such one of the smart ones. But I happened to be lucky enough that I was being taught by the same people who was, uh, writing the books, writing the standards setting you know in the forefront of doing it right.

So, um, as they were writing the books, they had called me up and say hey, we don't know whether this, that a works or b works. Try one room this way and one try this way. You know, give me some interesting.

Stuart:  Yeah, so it was really at the kind of, as they were setting the standards and the best practices, you were really involved in that kind of I don't want to say trial and error, but the oh that's beginning to be right.

Lee:  That's such an interesting.

Stuart:  Right, it's such an interesting place to be because you kind of put yourself in that conversation that's going on with the people who are setting those standards. So again, that doesn't that opportunity doesn't come up for everyone, but it must have been a really interesting time in the market to kind of be involved at that level it was, and because just my personality, you know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge.

Lee:  You know not being satisfied with you know, just a surface knowledge. I kept on wanting to do better and better, and as soon as a class was available I would take it, and so forth.

I spent a lot of time away from you know home. I wish my wife can attest to that. You know conventions, things like that. But as I continued to get better, it came that there was nobody in my market. And then I'm in Birmingham, alabama, nobody in my market that was actually doing it according to the way the books were written, and so I've been in the business so long. I even had to talk the yellow pages into having a category for mold removal, a category for mold inspection.

I bring back a yellow page from Dallas or Atlanta and say look, they got it. Why can't we have one here?

Stuart:  You know, right, that's so funny.

Lee:  Yeah, so been in it a bit and it seemed, as I continued to grow I was able to help people, and at that time I was just doing the mold removal. That's called remediation, removing the mold. Well, to do the mold removal correctly, you really need to know beforehand what's the scope of work, what needs to be done. Well, at that time the industry was relying on what's called a CIH, or Certified Industrial Hygienist, because they've been working with the asbestos people, and so they had some protocols. They knew how to do that, but they actually didn't know building science. They and as best as, once you remove it, you know it's gone forever. You remove it, but the environment's still there. It's going to pop up in the same place. So they didn't have a full grasp of what was going on. So then I went back to school again to become an inspector and uh, so that was uh and was that and go ahead?

Stuart:  was that an existing inspector certification that, like they, they existed, they just weren't really used? Or is this really laying the groundwork for what a mold inspector needs to be, because it was all new territory?

Lee:  it was all new territory. It was all new territory because the cih is uh, fantastic at what they did. But cih means certified industrial hygienist, so they were used to the industrial setting. You know having to do with hearing and in fall protection and you know safety around. You know safety around. You know big moving machines. That was their niche. But a indoor air quality professional for a residence it wasn't known of, and so we were kind of. I was fortunate enough to be on some of the trade associations that was first started and learned how to not only get the work done but communicate it and how to make sure that we're doing it well and it satisfies the need for the customer and the need for the science.

Stuart:  Yeah, yeah, actually that's a great point. That's customer understanding of something when you're in an industry that has I guess financial advisors are the same in the sense that there's somewhat complex products that confuse people. So customers have a surface understanding of what they want, but not the details. You guys for sure I mean people see mold or suspect mold, but then they don't know the, the details of remediation or, even more importantly, maybe the the cause of it in the first place. But that education gap or understanding gap, is that more, and it may have changed over time. But is that more educating the customers so they know more about it, so they can make better decisions themselves? Or it's just a familiarity or a feeling that they're in the right place? So they're not at all interested in the details, but they just want the certainty that you know what you're doing. How engaged are the customers? Typically because it's residential rather than commercial uh, you have both, you have.

Lee:  You have the just bottom line people. How much is it going to cost? Am I going to be able to sell the house? Well, that's a lot of times, you know, that's a lot of times that kind of customer. They just want a certificate saying it's been done so they can get rid of that piece of property or whatever. Then I have quite a few medically very, very sensitive people and they are allergic to everything, probably allergic to their own breath.

I mean, you're just scared out of their mind about everything. So a lot of it was, you know, talking to men off the ledge. Yes, mold can be an issue, them in off the ledge. Yes, mold Mold can be an issue. But God made mold. It's everywhere. It's going to be outside. It's going to be dissolving things. God meant it to be.

We just don't want too much inside our house and we don't want any of the bad kind. They're just saying it plain and simple that takes care of 95% of all the population, actually 97% of all the population. Now there is a sensitive group and the backstory is my mom got really, really sick. We lived in a moldy house, so I saw the result of us being in a moldy house and so indoor air quality always kind of had a in the back of my mind, a very part of my psyche, Right Personal connection to it, Right, Right. And so, to answer your question, for those who just want to know that you know what you're doing, and then just, you know, just flashing it or just saying you have it, you know. However, I have had customers who come back and text me back. You know five or six. On page seven you said this 49.

Stuart:  Well, that's fine.

Lee:  I know that they're engaged and most of the time they become my best, best, uh, cheerleaders, because they they have. They feel like they're validated in all the research they've done right.

Stuart:  Actually that's such a great point, that idea that it gives people. So we're talking in case people are just listening we're talking about using the book as the tool and people are engaging with that at various levels. But it's something that I don't think has come up in in the podcast that we've talked about before this idea that it gives the receiver of the book a validation of their concerns or approach or desires, because someone has written something that resonates with them and it backs up either a thought process that they've been trying to share with a family member or even a peace of mind that they're in the right space.

Lee:  That kind of buy-in right, because a lot of times it will only be one in the family, or maybe the wife and a kid, that that's. That's kind of the scenario.

The husband I'm not saying anything bad about men, but they sometimes are oblivious to the home environment and so they say, well, I don't smell anything, you know well, I mean, the kids are going to get sick, they go to school and all that. And the wife says I have, I have this when I walked to this part of the house. Or remember, we go to this vacation spot and after two days I feel great.

As soon as I get home within a few hours I start feeling lousy again. So the females are much better at connecting the dots between the way they feel or the way they observe their family to something having to do with the house, and they may not know what. And so mold is kind of the first thing they think of most of the time. And I will say at this juncture I can go into it later more if you want but as a certified industrial excuse me, certified indoor environmentalist there's about seven or eight major things that I take care of, including asbestos and radon and lead paint and bed bugs and VOCs and radon things. There's all different kinds of things in your house that can make you sick, but mold is that first thing they think of.

And because it's a complicated subject and it's got a lot of moving pieces, I found myself just spending hours and hours on the phone just answering the same questions over and over. And that's why I started back in and I'll tell you it was the spring of 2002 because I'd had an accident and I was bedridden for about five months. I was in a wheelchair for five months. So as my kids were running the business, I was sort of making these consumer advisories and they were, you know, 12, 13 pages long on different subjects, but mold seemed to be the one they really wanted to learn more about, and so that became the nexus of answering a lot of the basic questions. So it would save me time in that Right. So in a way it is kind of selfish in the first.

Stuart:  Right and serving the community that's there, trying to give them as much helpful information as possible in the most efficient way as possible. I think all of us who are listening are within the business because we've got a passion for it to some degree and we really want to share the message. So this idea that having the time and the foresight to capture the questions and then feed that back to people, it's just, it's serving the market that's there and knowing that that then leads to business further down the track because you are establishing yourself as the experts. It can seem there is the option of thinking about it in a selfish way, but it's really just. Sharing that information is the least selfish thing around. It's trying to help everyone in a way that makes the most sense. So in 2002, we've got the Consumer Reports coming together.

You were saying the carpet cleaning type background, so I'm guessing that's where the Toronto marketing and Joe Polish's worldishes world comes into it yeah, I was the father of brother joe, polish for right and those early I mean again, we've both got enough gray hair, that um, that we've been around the environment for a long time those early consumer guides or reports, or room by room review or the carpet audits.

That joe would do all of these things to kind of move the not quite esoteric knowledge but move the kind of the conversational knowledge and the the experience based reckons on on what the answer is to something that's a little bit more formulated and and official looking. So whether it's together in a report or a book, whether you've got a room-by-room review or the carpet review, which are some techniques that they've talked about in the past, but all of it goes to establishing this authority and building some rapport with people. So, before the books were around, did you find that you were getting people feeling back? Or the conversations that you had were referring to these guides that you'd created to people and the conversations that they helped start?

Lee:  Yes, and that's a great question because I try to look forward. But you have to get feedback from the past to know which way you want to go, and so I knew I didn't want it to be salesy. I wanted to be educational and we call ourselves an education-based company Because a lot of people hear the word mold and get scared and that there's there's, get panicky and even with and say we're talking about upholstery or carpet cleaning. A lot of people really did appreciate the fact that here's a guideline if you got blood and you go, you use this. If you got, you know, crayon, you try this you, before you call us, maybe you don't need us, right?

Yeah, that was, uh, something that I really uh got the most feedback on it the fact that people would say, well, you know, thank goodness, you're not going to charge me $100 and do five minutes that I could have done. If I just know Now that if you were a short-term thinker and you were transaction-based only, you'd say, well, I don't want my guys, I don't want my people, you know, doing their own stuff. But the relationship was far better, you know, when they're doing their job playing bridge, whatever, bowling, whatever if the subject comes up. We're the. We're the ones they want to recommend.

Stuart:  Yeah that idea that you become their guy. That goes to person because you've started by being helpful first and the the small amount of transactions that you would get from those low value jobs versus the goodwill and all the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I low value jobs versus the goodwill and all of the larger jobs that you get. Because, okay, I can do these steps as myself, but this job is too big. Or today I can do these steps myself, but tomorrow the same thing happens, but I'm out of town, or it's a rental property that needs to be done immediately. Or there's lots of reasons why, once you've kind of claimed that space in their head is the, the, the helpful go-to person that fills the spot much more opportunity to write a bigger piece of the pie down the track so a term we use a lot in our, in our safety and sales meetings.

We want to be their trusted advisor right, yeah, yeah, and I think a lot of people use that term as a kind of a throwaway term and they kind of put it out there, thinking that if I say enough, people will believe me, but they're not actually fulfilling that role. Everything is a little bit more transactional, but it's overused sometimes. What that really means, as it really establishes a relationship so much stronger and and evidence, is that you're the trusted advisor, not just you're trying to tell people you're their trusted advisor. It's a, it's a slight mind shift change. But and it goes into this abundance type a lot of our clients are strategic coach clients and strategic coach has this very big emphasis on an abundance and a multiplier type mentality rather than a scarcity and a lock and in type mentality. So it ties in so well with a much better approach to doing things.

Let's move forward. We've got 2002. We've got some guides. There's some good feedback coming from that. Where do we start thinking about bringing that together in a book? Because I know the first book was before we had a relationship. You were bringing some pieces together for that was it a? Was it a relatively quick transition in the thought and then it took a while to execute, or did you think about writing a book and then immediately started bringing it together? How long did it take to percolate?

Lee:  oh, I, if I'd had a, if I, if I could have done it over, I would have come to you first. It was a slog, it was a tough slog to get through. Um, so my, my books I tried to keep. I tried to keep most of the small little subjects that because of printing. My dad was a printer so I learned a few little tricks and we had we did our own printing actually here in in shop. Oh wait, uh.

So we tried to keep them at either 16 or 32 pages and after 32 pages I really wasn't telling enough and I really didn't want to, and so I started saying, well, I guess then I got, I need to either do an A and a B you know you know two or you know a continuing series, whatever you call it. But then, because I did, I've always listened to marketing ideas and so forth and they talked about a book and that resonated with me because there's some kind of aura. Maybe not as much now, but there was always kind of an aura If you had the ability and time to write a book.

It just seemed that people put you up just a little higher in their estimation a little bit, and so everything I was doing was not a perfect bound or you know as I like them now, and they were either spiral bound or stapled together, things of that nature. But when I decided to do a book, then I had plenty of information Right and I'm an early riser. Unfortunately, I wake up at 3.30, you know, by, by 3.30.

So I would spend an hour or so most mornings and it took me about nine months or so to put the information down and then categorize it into chapters and so forth, and then it took me probably another year to pull the pictures. And you know and I'm not it wasn't a really simple book, it was because mold can go deep. It had you know the chapters on, you know the chapters on. You know what do you need to do, what can you do? When do you need a professional? Uh, what about contents? What if it's in the crawl space? You know, you know each of those, and but I had of the scientific data, I had the indices in the back, which then I had the footnotes to come back to, which is a little more complicated.

So you know, I really applaud Betsy and Kim for all the hard work they did getting that done, because we'd have it all set up and then we'd move a paragraph and we'd lose the link Something would change yeah.

Something would change or do this, and all of a sudden the picture's way out here. So, but I got through with the whole thing. I put it on Amazon. To be honest, I, I don't, it never did, and I was a hundred percent correct. I never did sell a lot on Amazon, right? However, just being able to say I sell it on Amazon for 1295, but here is, here is your copy, that has more emotional impact.

Stuart:  Yeah, it's so. You're talking there about the kind of heat and light and and authority for one of a better term that comes from being having the book on the subject. I always I mean there's so many examples now we've we've worked with over a thousand people, but the example always brings to mind is a podcast that you might have listened to that I've recorded last year with paul ross, who's a podiatrist, and he tells the story of. He's got three or four books on several different conditions and the latest one was called my Damn Toe Hurts, and it's for whatever the condition is that makes your toe hurts, but he tells the story of a guy coming in I don't know if it was a guy or a girl, but a patient coming in and being sat in the chair, and this was a new patient. There was no kind of real connection with them and halfway through the the process they were saying oh, I've just realized, you're paul, you're the person who wrote the book, and there was this kind of elevation in the the experience because he'd written the book.

I often say that exactly the same words on a website or on a youtube video don't have the same impact as the fact that we print them on and glue them together on dead trees. It must be the the dead trees in the paper and the dead cows in the glue. There's something about that combination that makes it appealable to or appealing to people. But there is definitely something about that and our approach is. I mean, we're pretty adamant the difference between a traditional book and a conversation starting book, and we're in the conversation starting book world because the traditional book world is expensive and there's a lot of effort put into it. That doesn't get the returns for us as real business owners, but one of the things that we definitely do get is the fact that it is a book. We call it a book. It looks like a book, it's printed as a book, even if people are using the digital versions. We tell people to refer to it as a digital version of the book and not an e-book, because that is irrelevant and unnecessarily devalues it.

Lee:  I didn't know that I learned something. Thank you.

Stuart:  Okay, yeah, so there you go. So when you say to someone, when you say to someone on the, when you say to a customer, I'll send you a digital version of my book, or you say to the next customer, I'll send you my ebook, what you're sending them is the exact same thing. But even just talking about it now, you can imagine the perception on the other end. Someone receiving the digital copy of the book oh, that's great. Someone receiving an ebook like an ebook is a pdf I can download off the internet. Why is that valuable? So just those little psychological things that reinforce that.

Not that we're doing this purely for authority, but if there's authority there to be taken, we should make the most of it.

It's another reason where I'm not sure.

So the later ones that you did with us versus the earlier ones, the the ones that the digital versions that we send out are laid out exactly as the book is.

So there's left and right page pagination and whereas there's a blank page in the book, there's a blank page in the digital version. Again, when you think about the use case, having a blank page on a digital version is pretty irrelevant. But the reason that we do it is because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is, because we're trying to keep this, this, uh, this perception going that it's a digital version of the book and because it is a published book, that has more authority, so anyway, all of these things that kind of amplified. The point that you mentioned is that out in the world there is a enhanced credibility and authority and and heat and light that goes along with having a published book. We know behind the scenes that that's easier to do now than it was 30 years ago, but still it has that, has that element to it, and I can I ask you a question?

Lee:  I'm going to interview you for a second yeah, of course. So, uh, some some documents I may buy are in a flip book format and you know, you hear, you, you, you, you hear the page going over. Is that something that you have tried and recommended?

Stuart:  so it's funny I was so I'm down in the office in Florida now rather than at home in Pennsylvania just this week and I was meeting yesterday with Betsy and christy and we were running through some of the additions that we want to make to the package and we wrote down on the list those flipbook page turner type things. So when we last looked at it a few years ago, it was problematic. Everyone needed a special app in order to download it. They were typically hosted on a subscription service at the provider and then it was slow and clunky. If people were doing it on a cell phone or an ipad, it just didn't really work very well. So the technology has improved a little bit, but there's still a little bit of a barrier to to doing that, because typically it's not as easy as a PDF, where you send someone an email and it's got a PDF embedded in it or it has a link to a PDF that's on, like Amazon or Dropbox. They can just click on it and it will just immediately open up in the browser. Every other solution is typically either they need to download something or they need to go to a web page and it's got the other websites chrome around it and it's a little bit clunky, so I think we're still generally in the camp of it's not worth it.

The benefit of keeping to that book framework with a formatted pdf that looks like a book takes the majority of that, but it is something we're looking at to see if there's a tool that does it, because I think the use case there would be to send it out in an email to someone and say hey, thanks for requesting a copy of the book. There's some really great information on it. Particularly if you're in this scenario, check out this section. That is really useful. I've actually included two links for you. One is to the pdf, just the pdf, and then another is to the page turner. So depending on which you prefer some people prefer one or the other just know that it's the same content, so that might be a use case for it.

Lee:  Yeah, that would be a good A B test to see which one they choose.

Stuart:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think still the majority of the services that do it. Well, it's a subscription service, so there is a cost overhead. One of the other ways of using it might be is if you do in videos and you're talking about the content of the book and you were doing like a screen share, like so you did a behind the scenes, like in the email sequence after someone opted in. If you did a behind the scenes, like a deeper dive on one chapter and you were doing a screen share, I mean it might be worth having a page turner just because maybe it's more visually compelling. But again, that would be a test between is it more visually compelling or is it just unnecessarily distracting.

So it's definitely interesting and the good thing about all of this conversation the good thing about it is technology continues to move forwards and having created the thing, you've done 90% of the work for whatever technology change there is in the future, like if the whole PDF standard changed and it went away and everyone switched to the MOB or MOBI, like the KDP, the Kindle books, like, imagine that everything suddenly changed to that. Well, you've done all the work. It's just a case of reconfiguring it for the new platform. So it gives so many opportunities once you've got it created, just to keep up with whatever the latest use cases for it. Gotcha, that was a long answer to a short question.

Lee:  Well, I'm sorry we didn't rehearse that, but that was just really interesting because I'm studying for a test and that's what they provided is for me too Ah okay For my test scores.

Stuart:  That's interesting then. So your experience of using it if you imagine that you had that flip, had that flip version versus just the PDF version where you would just scroll through in whatever PDF software that you had the experience of you doing it, was it more clunky using that page turner or did it add anything to it and then, from right, didn't add anything to?

Lee:  it and then, from right, didn't add anything. It did not because what I wanted to do was print a few pages at a time so I could lay in bed and not be in a screen. I was trying to cut down my blue screen time before I go to sleep, but reading, you know, just a few printed out pages would satisfy that. And also, you know, help me do my studying at a flight time.

Stuart:  And you know I didn't want to be if you drop from sleep as you fall asleep and there's some paper falls on your face, that's one thing, if a ipad falls on your face, that's a different story.

Lee:  That's right so it did not satisfy what I was actually aiming for, so in it right that context. I only had to do it at my computer, yeah.

Stuart:  And a lot of reasons people do it as well is this idea of locking stuff down. So a reason that some people or some organizations don't like PDFs is when the PDF is out there, it's out there, you can't do anything or it's very difficult to do anything to restrict it. So sometimes they'll put them in these other platforms. That restricts entry. But then again the use case for that it's a misalignment between the customer experience and what you're trying to do. You're trying to lock this stuff away and you make it additionally inconvenient for the client because they can't open it on every device or they can't print it off when they want to, or they can't. Most most PDF softwares now allow you to highlight and mark up in the document itself. So again, thinking about it from the user's perspective rather than from the company's perspective. Another reason for keeping it simple and and making it as accessible as possible.

Lee:  Right, yeah, making it as accessible as possible, right, yeah, so I was able to go from. I did. My first book was around 64 pages, and so then is I went. I didn't want to do it in in because I didn't have the equipment. I took it to an outside printer and, uh, had about 200 printed and that lasted me six, seven, eight months, something like that. I was giving them out left and right and that I ordered more. I think I ordered, maybe you know, 1200, you know, over the over the over the years, and every year or so I would update a little bit here and there, change out pictures, as, as I would be explaining things to people, I think of an illustration I says that's what I want to use.

So I'd go back and tweak one paragraph or I. Would you know if there was a news event or something like that that was more current, then I would try to bring the and plus. I wanted to change the copyright date every year. You know when I did it too, right, okay? Yeah and so I'll see more up to date, exactly, exactly yeah, but um, the uh, the last, the last version that was would call a book, was in 18. I last really did any major tweaking to it in 20 or 21, something like that.

And by that time I was so busy during COVID I really didn't have time to do anything else. But then, as things came back a little bit to normal, then I wanted to do a better rewrite and I said, well, I'm going to use, you know, because I always had continued listening to you and your guest. I mean, you have some awesome, very smart guests. I don't know why I'm on here, but you have some wonderful, you have a wide variety. That gives me, you know, expands my universe, right.

Stuart:  And it's easier. I don't know if you find the same, but I find it's easier to listen to someone else's specific business but think about the principles and then apply them to my own thinking or even apply it to their business, because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation. Because then you're just thinking about the principles and you're not thinking about the implementation, like if every guest was in the remediation business and they were talking about things, a reasonable portion of your brain would be thinking at the details of the actual job of work, the remediation piece, and not the marketing principle piece. So anyway, I'm not sure if you're the same, but I like listening to a broad spectrum because the ideas you can concentrate on the ideas and not get stuck in the weeds of the business itself.

Lee:  Exactly, Exactly, yeah, and so I really I do appreciate the fact that it it looks.

Stuart:  I've added, I think it we're up to 160 pages on the new book, right, a lot thicker, and it looks good, feels good, and so you, you can't deny it is a book, right yeah, I think that the way that you did it as well was the perfect way of starting off with something that's manageable and then adding over time based off that real world feedback, because so many. It's like the lean model of get something out there first, or the what's the saying no plan survives contact with the enemy or the mike tyson one if everyone's got a plan until I punch him in the face just a bit more direct. But this idea if you could spend and this is why I yeah, I'm going to try and not go off on a rant because I think I did that one or two shows ago but the whole bestseller marketplace that's out there with people charging tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to write a book under the premise that you'll become a bestseller, and then sit back and people just start knocking on your door. There is definitely a use case for that. But it's the top of the market where creating the Rolls Royce of a book in one go and putting all the eggs in that basket, where that pays off and you get a return on that investment.

The majority of us, the vast, vast majority, was real world business owners. If we start off with our reckon, first our field, for what's that? What will resonate with the market, but then we add over time not only does it mean that it's likely to get done because it's the scope is more constrained, but if it turns out that we need to pivot, then we haven't kind of sunk everything in one. I mean you were talking about the breadth of your business is pretty broad, but knowing that mold was the first one and starting with that, and you can imagine a scenario where you started with water remediation or air quality or something that didn't quite hit the mark and then the feedback that you get people are always asking about more mold questions. If you just spend 50, $60,000 on the air quality book and years to write it. I mean it's your approach of creating something that starts the conversation and then iterating based on that feedback. It's by far the most successful way of doing it.

Lee:  Right, and because we do want to be an education-based company, be an education-based company. It is a slow migration toward the rear. I start laying in little hints we can help people with that, give us a call, and so forth and we're probably 30 pages in before I really start putting those hints that, yes, you may have this problem and you can take care of it, but if this is too much to handle, I'm here for you. And so no advert saying you need to call us because we're the best, or anything like that. Don't, we won't, we won't, we won't to set the bar and then let them decide who's reaching that bar or not. Because, yeah, because, in my business there is, there are so many shysters, so many high pressure salesmen. They want to scare you into doing work. Oh, my god, your house is going to be different mode. You need to run, right, you know.

Stuart:  Burn the house, yeah, yeah whatever like, as, as soon as they start asking questions, it's well, and if I mean, if you want your children to die, then I mean you could not do it.

But it's like the, uh, the, the, anything to do with babies, the. Not that I've personally experienced in this, but I've heard people say like you go into the, the, um, the stroller, is that a british word or is that an American word? I'm getting confused. Anyway, like the pushchair, the stroller type fails people and they say, well, there's this model and this model which is in the price range that you're thinking about. But for people who really value their child's safety, there's this thousand dollar plus model over here and it's that psychological and I think that's what everyone is super conscious of, even going into it. Like the reason that the husband, to a certain degree kind of, is turning a blind eye to it is because they don't want to make the call and have that salesman saying well, clearly your wife is suffering here, so if you love her, you give me the thousand dollars that I'm asking for right it.

Lee:  Your ethics over time will always outweigh the cost you have to charge, because I'm not going to be cheap. We're not going to be the cheapest.

Stuart:  We're going to do things right.

Lee:  I got $4 million worth of insurance just because I got the word mold in my name. Right? Yeah, and so it's not a cheap business and so and it's a complex with a lot of variables and put pieces of the puzzle and and I like the way one of your previous ones, Tim, starts with a W, but he talked about it being complex and it's not a transaction here I want a hot dog.

It's not a transaction here, I want a hot dog, it's not that right because a lot of times when I go in and do an inspection I charge for inspection. I do testing and so forth. So people may say, well, people. Some people will say, well, I can get a free, free mold inspection. You know from you this three letter over here and I says, well, are you getting an inspection or are you getting a salesman? You know, because I haven't spent this, you know 30 years of education and can give it away, and because we charge for it. It's the wording I like is SIF, sort and screen. If they are willing to pay my $259 for me just to show up the door and spend an hour and a half to two hours with them, then I know they're serious enough to possibly do work with us.

Stuart:  Yeah, go ahead, and they know that you're coming in there, you're providing the service for that inspection to give them the best information on what the next step is and if they've come through the book funnel anyway, they already know that you're willing to share and give away the knowledge to put them in the most empowered position to take the next step. Most empowered position to take the next step, but that inspection that is comprehensive and more broad than some of the kind of dash in dash out and it's just a sales opportunity they get.

Lee:  They get a written report, usually seven to ten pages. You know at the end is the notes and so forth yeah, they get good value for that exactly, and it's part of the process.

Stuart:  So that's why I really like about the, this idea that we keep reinforcing of the conversational um, the conversation starting book, and that that conversation is broader than just a transaction. So, starting that journey by educating them and helping them understand the questions that are important to them or things they might not realize, or reinforce the things that they know already. And then the next step is we need to elevate this conversation to something that's more fact-based and detailed and it's not just coming in for a reckon and a sales call. It's actually giving you the value and even at that point you still may choose to take that somewhere else. But hey, we're all happy with that because we've brought the conversation along and there's an introduction to the services. There's a value exchange in the value that you give and the cost that's charged for it. I think it's a much more transparent type of relationship.

Now, if you're in a business where you're able to do something that is zero charge upfront because because there's not the um, there isn't the, the cost overhead or the value overhead, like that, that initial transaction, the value proposition on that is much smaller then hey, it makes sense that maybe there's no charge type things like for us when we have we have um, like I'll do a 20 minute call with with pretty much everyone to talk about their book idea, because I've got the bandwidth to do it and there's there's the ability to do it. It's quite quick. But as we're starting to get more into, if we want to do a consultation on what your book idea is and then you walk away from that with some real detailed steps to the process based on our framework, but you could take that and go away by yourself, then that's the that's-stepping that we've got. But I think that adding value and and having a value transfer, a transfer of value at the right level as part of this broader conversation, it really makes sense for bringing everyone along in the same way.

Lee:  Two things I want to mention. One it's amazing.

More people will pay attention to you if they're paying you right, yeah, a lot of people have you the expression free advice is worth every penny, and the other thing is a lot of our. If I go in and do an inspection and I find out, hey, you need to call a plumber. Your HVAC is what's causing this. You need to get your HVAC fixed first. Yeah, we can remove the mold, but until you change the environment or the nexus of the problem in the first place, you're going to be mad when that new mold comes back in two years.

And so I had a customer call nine months ago. He says oh, I am so sorry, but we hadn't called you, but we had this happen, this happened. I had to get this done. I finally got what your recommendation list said. I'm finally ready for it. So you know, give me a new price on this project and we're about $24,000. And that's an average. That's a little better than average job for us, but a lot of our jobs are in the $7,000 range, so it's not a $3 hot dog it's complicated.

It's a time process and you have to be that advisor along the way and after you give them the book. It's best if you could now I'm a texter so I will just text did you get your hvac you fixed or did you know? What did the plumber find when he went there?

you know those kind of things just every couple of months, every couple of weeks, every couple of months or something like that, or just shoot them a a paint a picture of you know a product that would really help them right because it keeps the conversation going.

Stuart:  I mean this whole idea of conversation starting it just happens to be the books in the most effective way of starting that conversation, but the product, the the thing that we're most interested in isn't book sales, it isn't even the books themselves, it's just that's the mechanism that we're using. It's the conversation, because it's the minority of people who are ready to take action immediately. It's not like, um, like I say, it's not a transactional business. We're not selling them a hot dog outside a football stadium and they're hungry, and the transaction takes place immediately. Or or you're not the plumber where they've got a water leak and it needs to happen immediately. These are cross processes and projects that have a certain cadence to them, which is a little bit longer, and keeping that conversation going in the way that's the most convenient for you and for them. Lots of opportunities, and I want to make sure that we talk about I always joke that time goes fast, but yet again, time goes fast. On the, on the podcast here.

I want to talk quickly before we wrap up, though, about the ways that you're using the books, and I'll include some pictures here, because Lee was kind enough to send across a few pictures of the way that he's using it. So, as you're listening, check out the link on. I don't know if it will show up in the podcast feed, but on the website there'll be the links in the website. So there was a couple of pictures he'd sent through, three of them that really stood out. One was there was a sticker on the book where you were using it in a certain place. Don't want to touch on that. The other one was their vehicle wrap, just because I find that funny. It's not quite the right word, but it just tickles something when I see it. Don't talk about that quickly. And then the third one was there was a picture on a what do you call them Like the rollout board things outside the conference room. It looked like the poster board, the poster board. Thank you, yeah.

Lee:  That poster board is right now in our foyer, but when we would do trade shows and so forth, that would go to the trade show and we would have stacks of our books. We'd have one book out there. You know scarcity, we wouldn't show them all because that would that kind of lessen the value.

But yeah, yeah well, you can go get one, and, and so how much would this one? You know how much is this one and, and I sold a few. But if they If they really did, you know, have us call out, then I would just go ahead and handle, right. So so I kind of felt I wanted to feel the real interest before. I gave them at that time a five dollar book. Now they're going, you know, that'll cost a lot more than that for me to to do um yes so the poster board is one thing.

One thing that you'll see is now, this is a little um ninja, I guess I don't know what the right word is, but the sticker on the on the front says waiting copy. Please do not remove. See back cover. And on the backside I had another one says to get your free copy of this, go to freemoldbookcom, and it also had a QR code that they could do. So. Do you think I went and asked permission before I left them in the waiting room?

No, I give it to all my employees I say, when you take your kid or grandma to the, you just leave it there. You know that's hilarious, you just leave it, all right. So they're there because of health, right, right.

Stuart:  And so that's my target audience I tell you what you were joking before saying hey, you've had some other great guests. I don't know why I'm here, but if, as anyone's listening, this is the gold for this episode, that kind of griller tactic of just because we often talk about this idea of complementary, non-competing businesses and I think I've even used an example of, like, a doctor's waiting room is the perfect place to leave some things, but I must admit I'd never thought about just just doing it.

Lee:  But that's the perfect, that's perfect um, and before covid, we had one salesman. He's no longer with us, but I had assigned him to sell air purifiers that was what he spent his time in. So he would go and visit allergists and so forth, and we'd leave one in the waiting room. It says to get your own. We had a bumper sticker made just a property of, but to get one of your own, go to call this number, go this website, and so forth. Just a puppy dog, and so we sold one or two. But the people who call on doctors, they have a. I have to admire them. They have, they have a certain way of handling things. They're very suave and very diplomatic. You know, our guys was just, you know, didn't look like. You know one of those farm reps.

And so it happened to be that I was ready to get a wrap on my car anyway wrap on my car anyway and so I waited. You know, I waited two or three months until I finalized the new picture this one, of course, I paid for the graphic. I paid, you know, got the rights to use that many years ago, changed it up and so I use and for myself I use some. I use a guy on Fiverr, been using him for about 10 years. He's got all the logos and everything for both of my companies and he's just kind of knows what I like Very few good English, just good conversation, reasonable price. English, just good conversation, reasonable price. And so that fit in with the rest of my logos and so forth that are already on the wraps and on the vehicles.

Stuart:  Right. So do you track at all or do you have an indication on how that lands with the people out there? How many people use the qr code to get a copy of the book, or how many people grab it from the vehicle, or or the the um, the events. Obviously you're there so you know what happens at the events, but you don't feel either specifically or anecdotally. On the other, ones.

Lee:  It's not perfect, but yes, to some extent. Uh, we had the option of being able to send out the book of you know automatically when somebody did it, but we decided we opted not to do that because my daughter, who's actually the marketing uh lady, she sees everyone and we you know, she can.

Stuart:  You know if, if somebody from a foreign country you know, we can we can just tell that you know they want us to send it you know there's a lot of spam, you know and robots and whatever.

Lee:  So she sees every one of those and it does ask how did you hear about us? Now, on our front end we have a call-in sheet that Ms Deborah asked and she goes through all of those and right on there she's instructed and she does a good job at this. The Columbo question If you remember Columbo, he was almost out the door and he'd ask one more question.

Stuart:  Right, one more thing, yeah, one more thing.

Lee:  So oh, by the way, how'd you hear about us?

Stuart:  And so yeah, that was written down every time yeah, those, um, this idea of getting out in front of audiences and understanding where they are, so the kind of connection between the doctor, surgery and people being there for health and more might be something that they're interested in. Does that go broader than that? Do you have other examples or the other, because you've been doing this for a while? So is it an easy thought process to think, okay, there's this group of people who might be the perfect match of clients and they're in this space. Is it easy for you to think about where they are? Or was that that doctor's surgery example? Was that the response, the, the outcome of like some dedicated thinking and like a brain trust for a period of time?

Lee:  I don't. I don't remember the thought process at the time. Um, you know, entrepreneurs have way too many ideas, but that they don't ever follow through, right, uh, so a lot of times, a lot of our business also comes from people who are in the real estate business, either from the real estate agents or inspectors.

So yes we go to realtors offices and mention, you know, mention what we do and how it benefits them to maybe have the owner re-look at the house and make sure they have a chance to make any adjustments before somebody else comes in and wants to lower the price because they found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Found or won't walk away because of mold, so we can do pre-inspection there. Or if somebody on the other side, if somebody's buying, then a special Alabama is not one of those that requires a mold inspection. Other states do, but a lot of people who are moving in just assume they're going to get that in a radon test.

And so they ask for it and I'm on the rolodex of uh, probably out of 150 inspectors in in town, I'm probably on the rolodex of probably a good 30 or 40 of them okay, yeah and gee, I recorded a podcast yesterday so it'll probably be the show before this as people are listening to it, but a couple of weeks ahead of where we're talking today.

Stuart:  So Jeff Klein, who I was talking to yesterday, helps business owners who and try to kind of like transition into speaking events and and not to become professional speakers, but kind of like as a lead generation type thing.

So he had a list and again, if if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week. But he had a list and again, if people have been watching along, they'll have seen it last week but he had a list where he documented all of the Chamber of Commerce meetings, all of the I forget what else was on the list now, but there were several of these kind of industry organizations that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, that had a mandate for bringing speakers in for their guests, and then the premise was, of course, if you have a book, you've already got the majority of a delivery there, and now you've also got a book as the call to action, the next step. So is that something that you've explored or had opportunity to do? Kind of speak to those you mentioned the realtors, like speak at a realtor organization or the inspectors I'm would have the same thing or even Chamber of Commerce.

Lee:  Right, I have not done Chamber of Commerce, I have done Building Code. Now, that's an odd bunch. They are really, really to the, because I took my code book. He had his code book and he's saying, well, look here it says this. I said, well, I understand, but over here it says I can't do this.

And so once he saw, I knew what I was doing and I says I am not doing anything to detrimentally hurt the house, it's only an improvement. What you, the way you want, it is great, but this is better and right. And then I and I brought out, you know, magazines and other organizations who said the same thing and he, finally, he finally acquiesced, he, it took him, it took two or three weeks before we came to. But would you know, but did you, would you know that he called me the next year. He says, mr Raymond, would you come and talk to our association of building? It was, you know, about 20 different cities who come together every other month and they just had, you know, meeting three that kind of thing.

So it just sort of again being able to get in front of the right people, because change is hard. People don't like change.

And the way that we can take care of crawl spaces is change from what the codes say and it leaves the house, you know, cleaner and more healthier, doesn't smell and, you know, saves the energy. All these different things. After we removed the mold, we changed the environment of the crawl space so the rest of the house gets healthier. But that changes hard of the crawl space, so the the rest of the house gets healthier. But that's right. Change is hard and so again.

Stuart:  Uh, you, sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in yeah, and people admit some initial responses, particularly, I think, where there is this kind of confrontation type industry of the building respectors someone's trying to do this and they've got to be led through the law. No, it has to be this way around. Or, um, when changes come through, there's either it changes a whole load of practices underneath or there's some conflict about whether it's changing to a or b. So I think people's natural response sometimes is that no, push away or stand off first.

But the illustration that you gave there is perfect in this idea of conversation starting. We're usually talking about it in terms of clients and that kind of funnel, but this conversation starting with other industry professionals and that cohort of peers where there is a relationship that can be developed over time, and the fact that a book exists and brings all of that information together in a way that is either a backup to a conversation that's had or a next step or it just brings it together. All of these conversations start and lead towards things further down the track and I think throughout all of this conversation that's what's really resonated and I hope it resonates for listeners is you've brought together this information in something that is a book that's got more authority than if you had it in a different format, but it really lays the ground for this longer term relationship with people and and just kicks everything off on the right foot and and takes that brings people along with you, whether that's clients or partners or collaborators. It's just such a great way of doing it. Time's flown by. What were you going to say there?

Lee:  I usually hand it to a customer in a sleeve like this very cheap Alibaba or something like that. That adds value. They feel like it's been and plus, mine were getting all you know wrinkly and in the car, so this is preserved the way they look. So if you carry them around and that added that's a to me that was just a nice little yeah again.

Stuart:  I'm pretty sure I'm going to call this podcast something to do with guerrilla marketing, because these ideas are fantastic. That extra thought process. When you think about who your clients are, that the baseline is health concerns. When they're thinking about mold, they're already thinking about kind of like the hazmat suits and the breathing apparatus and that's their mental space. So you giving someone it's like the whole covid when you went to hotel rooms in covid like increasingly everything was individually wrapped and separated because the, the psyche, the mentality was like this protection I want. There's something out there that's trying to get me that your clients are already in that brain space to a certain degree. So the fact that you've given it to them in that plastic wrap that has a subconscious element of hygiene and we're we're thinking about this type of thing, I mean what a fantastic extra step oh they, less than a penny a bag, you know, in bulk right right.

This will definitely circle back in a few months and talk about some more of these ideas in. In some give people some more ideas that you're going through, but the it's such a heavy lift for people. So if they're thinking about doing a book by themselves, that's the most difficult way of doing it. I understand that some people do it that way, but it's the most difficult. Working with us is a much lighter lift, but there's still some. You've got to put some mental effort into it exactly, and it's the most disappointing thing that you think people get to the end of the process and they kind of think, oh, thank goodness for that. Now it's done and you don't see people doing things with it.

Once this is created, I mean, give yourself a week off if you want, but come back to it and then think, okay, I've now got this asset. What are all of the ways that I can use this asset in the most effective way? Is it physical? Is it digital? If it's digital, which format? Going back to the pdf versus page, turn the conversation. If I'm at a conference, do I want to give them a copy of the conference or just make it easy for them to get a copy if they're coming in and I'm asking them where they heard about us identifying that they did come through the book or didn't come through the book, how does that change the follow-up in the conversation, whether it makes sense to text them or email them, all of these things about. I've now have a series of assets and how can I use those to the best degree possible? Just that little bit of extra effort and attention and and using it I mean it can really make a huge amount of difference for people.

Lee:  Right, but once this gets, once I feel like it's left the nest. You know it's on its own and I've got all the because. Here's a damaging admission my weakness is one of the campaigns I plan to do next, and I haven't got to it yet is I'm going to go back to all my a chance, one of the first chances to have this new book and your free copy. So I'm, I'm, I'm lack on that. That's, that's a future project for me. So everybody's got something to prove on right.

Stuart:  Like you said before. I mean there's entrepreneurs, business owners. We've got more ideas than we have time to execute on them, so everyone's got. Everyone's got a list of things we should. We'll talk after we wrap up for a second, but we should talk about having a strategy. Call about that, because we've got lots of experience of doing that with people, so we can do that and maybe we can use that as the example to circle back in six months or so and do an update show just to give people some more ideas and go a little bit deeper on the ones that we've tried. Before we wrap, I want to make sure that people have got opportunity to find out more about you and the organization there, so where's a good place for people to go to learn more?

Lee:  Okay, if you want the book itself, I have a dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. Dedicated website called freemoldbookcom. My website is alabamamoldcom. Alabamamoldcom, pretty simple. It is geographically confining a little bit. But rest assured, if you are from out of state and you decide you want a book, that's fine, you're going to get it. You know you're going to get a PDF and we look forward to answering any questions. And for all of your readers and listeners and viewers and so forth, I'm just going to say I've already got a swipe file. I've already stuffed on my second book. I'm going to do a book for lake owners and the humidity problems that go with lakes. Ah, fantastic.

But, so I would just suggest that go ahead and take the first step. The book will pay its weight in gold and dividends.

Stuart:  Yeah, fantastic, I mean, for anyone who's ever thought about mold issues. I mean, as you say, there's pages and pages of your expertise and experience in there that will help them out and to see it as an example of how you're using it to engage customers and start that conversation. Perfect for that as well. I'll make sure that there are links to um, to those web pages and to your linkedin profile as well. I'll put all of those in the show notes so, as people are watching and listening on the podcast player or on the website, there'll be links straight through.

I'll put, as I mentioned, I'll put those images you sent through in the show notes as well. So I'm not sure I think they show up in most podcast players not iTunes, but most podcast players. I think they do, but I'll put them on the website as well. So another reason for people to head across there. Lee, fantastic, this has gone so fast. I really love just the implementation of this and the ideas again out there, because it's one thing to create something and I think the process that we've talked about in our process helps you to create the best thing possible but it's another thing to actually be out there using it in all of these fantastic ways to start the conversation.

Lee:  So I'm sure you've made a book. Don't let it sit on on the shelf. Get it out there yeah, exactly, exactly.

Stuart:  Well, thank you again, really appreciate your time thank you.

Lee:  Thank you, I appreciate it.

Stuart:  Privilege been a real privilege um it's a pleasure and we'll definitely circle back in a couple of months and do a follow-up. So, everyone, make sure you subscribe to the show and check in for the emails, because spam's an issue these days and mailboxes don't always want to deliver emails. So make sure that you're checking out things and then we'll catch you in the next one.