Today on the Book More Show, we're talking with Clare Price, CEO of Octane Growth Systems and author of Smart Marketing Execution, about leveraging books as strategic business tools.

We had a great conversation about how she created a framework based on her work and turned it into a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners centred around a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation.

It's a great example of 'Naming and Claiming,' an approach allowing you to create tangible and documented elements to ensure project success, as well as developing deeper connections with clients to increase business success.

We wrap up talking about her experience using her book to introduce her system and how that supports her licensing and certification programs.

This is a great episode with some really valuable insights into scaling an idea by owning your approach.

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

1. Clare Price, founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, has developed a comprehensive operating system for marketing consultants, fractional CMOs, and agency owners to leverage for business success.

2. The system is based on a three-tier framework of strategy, execution, and automation and helps fractional providers to scale their businesses.

3. Having a tangible and documented framework is essential for project success. The framework should be easily accessible for small business owners and developed with feedback from real people.

4. Deep connections with clients and understanding their needs is vital for achieving successful business outcomes.

5. Clare's approach to client collaboration involves working together with the client to create the deliverable, thereby increasing the value of the project for both parties.

6. Using books as a tool for sharing her system, Clare was able to prepare for the idea of licensing the system, leading to the development of a certification program.

7. Through licensing, more businesses can benefit from the system and more relationships can be fostered in the business community.

8. Real-world testing and multiple iterations are crucial for refining the system and making it beneficial for users.

9. The Octane Growth System provides clarity for both the consultant and the client, minimizing hiccups and delays in the process.

10. The power of books in business growth is underscored by their ability to articulate and clarify a framework, making it widely available and fostering relationships between consultants and clients.

LINKS 

Clare Price - LinkedIn
Octain Growth
Download the first chapter

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TRANSCRIPT
(AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors)

Stuart: Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the Book More show. It's Stuart Bell here, and today we've got a super exciting guest, someone I was introduced to on LinkedIn actually, we had a great conversation and then a podcast was the obvious follow-up Clare Price from Octane Growth. Clare, how do you do?

Clare: I'm doing great, Stuart. Thanks very much for having me today.

Stuart: No problem, it's a pleasure. I'm excited about this conversation because I think it's going to be a good illustration for people on the usefulness of having a book, because it's something that you've used a couple of times in your business and when our conversation started the idea of a podcast or I don't think I even knew that you had a book when we were first introduced so it's a real benefit, I think, to share with everyone. Now that's kind of come out and we've got an opportunity to talk about it a little bit more. Why don't we start by going into a bit of your background and share kind of your journey in the business and we can then bridge into the book and the framework, which I'm really excited to share with people?

Clare: Right. Thank you so much, stuart, I really appreciate it. Claire Price, I am the founder and CEO of Octane Growth Systems, and we work with marketing consultants, fractional CMOs and agency owners who want to do more with their clients, building a high quality deliverable in half the time. We believe that the days of just doing straight marketing activity are over, and the companies really need to change into and transition into a marketing operating environment and operating system in order to be successful in today's market, and so we've developed one.

Stuart: And it's exciting the last show that I recorded as we were recording today it was yesterday but it'll be the previous week in the show world we were talking a little bit there about the idea of creating frameworks as an easy way for people to understand and almost give milestones from moving forwards. So I think in the fractional world, almost more than the just the full-time employee world fractional owners or fractional providers really need more frames to be able to scale, because the nature of the business is more kind of scale dependent than it is perhaps for in-house people. But obviously there's a benefit across the board. The framework that you've got. I don't talk a little bit about that. Obviously we'll give links to the book so that people can grab a copy of it later, but just at a high level let's kind of introduce it and then we can dive into it a little bit more.

Clare: I would love to.

I do want to second what you just said about fractional and needing operating systems.

One of the biggest issues and I made that transition myself several years ago that people have when they decide that they want to move into the fractional market is they're moving from a corporate environment where they have a lot of resources and they have a big team and they can delegate, into a situation where a lot of it is all on them, so they have their experience to offer, which is a great gift to small business owners, because more and more small business owners need that high level of corporate thinking to be provided to them and fractional CMOs can do that. But in addition to that, they also need a way to help that business and to move forward and I think systems and frameworks is the way to do that. And that is actually why I developed my system, which is the Octane Gross System, and it's three components it's a strategy component, an execution component and an automation, and the reason we call it an operating system is because we bring those three things together, integrate them for our clients and for the consultants that are licensing the system.

Stuart: It's interesting actually and never really thought about it before, but that mirror is my experience.

So I moved out of a corporate job something years ago now and moving that was one of the big surprises in a way. Moving from an organisation I was on the IT side of the house moving from an organisation where you not only had resources but also more people, bringing a commonality of thinking. We're in the project management space, which I don't know how it's in the US, but in the UK that's pretty structured as well around certain frameworks and then all of the members on the project, all of the members on the team, were all thinking in that same way. So your individual responsibilities might be pretty broad and there was a lot of work to do, but at every point that you intersected with someone else there was a commonality of language and approach, and that is really something that is not replicated without systems like yours in the smaller business worlds. So I think it's an outsized benefit that is often overlooked. It's not just the individual parts of the expertise, but really how they stitch together.

Clare: I think it maximizes the ability of a fractional consultant to use their experience, because one of the things that is a struggle when you first especially when you first get started or you're in this first couple of years of working with clients is how do I get what I need from the client, how do I get the client to tell me about their ideal customer? How do I get the client to tell me what their story is? And one of the things that we've done with the Octane Grose system is we have developed a full set of tools, assessments and worksheets that we have then taken over the last 10 years and proven will produce the data that in probably 80 to 85 percent of the data you need to produce those deliverables for your clients.

Stuart: And that's the thing, isn't it?

Taking all of that learning and distilling it into something that's useful and actionable. I really like the three tiers of the framework, talking about strategy, execution and automation or amplification. There are three areas and almost building on them from one to the other really helps kind of set the scene and then move their engagement forward. And almost I mean we're talking about the fractional owner's side of things and how that could be implemented. But from the business owner's side of things as well, knowing that there's some, they can see the signposts of where the engagement is going and where we're trying to get to. So it's not just turning up to a meeting and laying the track as you go or not seeing the bigger picture from the start. It really seems like it would be a benefit on the owner's side as well as the fractional side. Do you get much engagement isn't that a word? But much uptake for this type of product from owner operators who are trying to do it themselves, as well as implementers who are trying to do it on behalf of others?

Clare: Well, that's who we typically work with, because we eat our own dog food, as they say, or drink our own champagne, as someone else puts it, which I like a lot better because we are also my team's also fractional CMOs. So we are continuing to work with small business owners. We do have clients that want to do a lot of it themselves, but what we do in our approach and I think it's really we found a sweet spot, stuart, and that is we call it client collaboration, because in a traditional consulting model which I came out of the consulting world I was a research director for Gartner for 10 years and the typical consulting world is have the discovery call with the client, go away, disappear behind the curtain, produce the deliverable, come back and hand it off to the client. The issue with that is the client really doesn't know what you're doing, and when they don't know what you're doing, particularly in that mid-sized market where budgets are always tight and we always have to make choices about what we spend our money on if I don't really understand what you're doing, do I really know the value that I'm paying for?

So what we offer is what we call client collaboration, and so, with all of our tools. The client and the consultant are working together to produce the deliverable, so they take it step by step. We use a Canvas model, so if you're familiar with something like Lean Stack or the OnePage Business Plan, we use a similar model approach and then, as we walk through each cell of the Canvas, the client and the consultant are working together to create the deliverable. The consultant adds their expertise, their evaluation, their analysis to the final deliverable. But the client has an opportunity to not only buy in to what they're doing, but also create the value create their own value and, of course, it makes it a lot more important to them and a lot more likely that they're going to go through with the implementation.

Stuart: And that's such an overlooked element to the whole success of the project. I think so many people get stuck in, particularly coming from the big consulting side of the world, because it's very transaction. You're responsible for the deliverable piece. This big team are out there onto the next job before you've even started the first one. So whether or not an organization ultimately uses it is almost secondary or irrelevant because you've moved on to the next task. But in a small business world, a medium business world, where you've got a long-term engagement, you're more connected with the people because it's actually the checkwriters are the people that you're working with to have that buy in and hopefully then increase the likelihood that something will happen from it. It's not just the work done but there's an actual useful business outcome to it that really makes a difference in the success of others, or only getting paid if the client gets results. All of those talking points that management theories will spit out as a good way of running a business by having that tie in from the start really makes much more of a connection the framework that you've got. So we have a lot of conversations with people who are in similar situations. They may be not on the fractional side of things or service providers, but they've certainly got a framework that they use within their business that if they could quantify it and share that with clients.

I often one of our friends in the world is a guy called Joe Polish.

He owned a carpet cleaning business years and years ago when he first started out, and one of the things that he would do was a room by room carpet.

I'm tripping over on what he calls it the pressure of thinking of the name. It was a carpet analysis when they go in and clean. So rather than going in and saying, oh yeah, the carpet is dirty, it needs cleaning, he would go in and draw out a grid and then mark on his estate and his aware and then give that to the client as evidence of oh, it's not just a finger in the air that you need assets. Here's the actual evidence that it's needed. So, similarly with your framework, it's a documented framework that not only tells people that, hey, we know what we're doing and we can do stuff, but here's exactly the steps that we're going to follow so long way, built into the question which is how easy was it to take what you've done and the knowledge that you've built over the 10 years and turn it into a documented framework. Was that relatively straightforward or was that quite a lift to just formalize it in that way?

Clare: It was actually a self-hosted process I produced in 2012,.

I produced a series of five playbooks their PDF playbooks I'm no longer available, but they were the start of this system brought those out to the market and was able to really learn from that structure what was workable at the small business level.

Because one of the real challenges with doing systems and frames if you're a system analysis person, you are typically an analyst, you're a complex thinker, you are a designer, you're a creator, all a visionary. In many cases, your client is in the weeds and so they're not going to take the time to spend a lot of think time on figuring out how to do the marketing, for example, that you would give to them. What they want is they want a solution. So what we had to do is we had to figure out how can we make this easy for small business owners, medium for busy businesses whether they're 10 million or 50 million, they're definitely moving at 1,000 miles an hour. How can we make it so that they can easily get the value and get the results that they're looking from this framework, from the system? And that's where the development of the tools came in, and those did take multiple iterations to get them to the point where they're really producing the kind of data that we're looking for.

Stuart: Those iterations were there iterations with clients? It was kind of a refinement process, or was it show yourself in a dark frame, yeah?

Clare: pretty much all with clients and all with clients in different vertical markets. We've tested this system with clients in 22 different vertical markets, everything from an apparel startup to a truck, a major trucking company in the Sacramento area, where I just moved from a few years ago from Sacramento to Raleigh. So working with different companies, different types of people, different company requirements is, I think, what has given this really the power of what we're able to offer.

Stuart: And testing it in the real world. That's such an old world model of locking yourself away and creating something behind closed doors I mean, I guess, unless you're Apple trying to create the next piece of hardware in secrecy for 90% of us out there in the real world as business owners engaging with real people, the far more successful way of doing it is to start with the first contract, the first piece of work, and then move and develop kind of iteratively. But in the real world I think it's very difficult to justify just closing away and holding off on a project for multiple months or even years in the hope of hitting the perfect one in secrecy and it being a home run.

Clare: Could not agree with you more. I think that the real people are going to use this real people. You need to have real people's feedback and experience. That's what we're doing right now. We've launched the first cohort of our training program and we have 44 beta users who are really giving us a good, the bad and the ugly of how this is working for them, so that we can continue to evolve it, because the goal is to make this so easy that both the business owner and the consultant can just wear it like a real comfortable suit of clothes.

Stuart: Yeah, that familiarity and every console has been worked out in the real world with the real feedback. I think it's a conversation that we have on a number of times around the books because we're really trying to go for that lean approach of a quick process of get the first version out there and then pivot or tweak or change based on the real world feedback, as opposed to the traditional world of publishing which is tens of thousands of dollars in months and months of time and therefore it does need to be. It's kind of like a one-shot deal. This much more agile, adaptive approach really means so you get it out there working. And I mean we were talking to a friend last week about Facebook ads and testing there and they were saying that it really is. They're doing a big scale like millions of dollars a month budget and they were saying it really is.

You have to get through 90% of the failing ads just to learn the 10% of work, but it's the 10% that pays for the 90% and then beyond and it's. I guess it's quite daunting because when you think back to writing things in school, you have to do drafts and then submit it and then it's marked and then there's. Well, for me at least, there was red pen all over it and it's almost a. It doesn't encourage you to want to just put something out there and try it, whereas where we are in putting it out there and trying it is the most effective way of going.

Clare:I really agree. I think the model that you have with the 90-minute books and really putting out that first version and letting it, you're in you. I think you're at the forefront of a real trend in, particularly in content marketing, because it's all about creator content, it's not about. It's creating content by community and by you know users working together, and I think the model that you've created lends itself so well to to that new trending content marketing, so that your book authors can really experience something that I think you know even two years ago would have been looked at kind of a little bit a scant maybe, but now it's definitely the way to go.

Stuart: Yeah, actually it's interesting. Kevin, who I recorded with yesterday, so again will be the the show before this he actually just finished the second book and we were talking about that and the second book came from the first one. So he's in the sales marketing type world, okay, working with sales teams. So his first book was 20 of his ideas, aimed to be a relatively not high level, but none of them were super detailed, but it was the 20 lowest hanging fruit or the easiest things that could come from it, and one of the ideas that he included was about writing personal biographies. It was just something that they've done for years. It was just literally one of the 20, but all of the feedback that he got was about that particular element Exactly, a marker from the community that this was something that there was much more of an expectation of, or an opportunity, rather, to dig into a bit deeper.

But your framework. So the three elements of the strategy, execution and automation there's various different. Again 2023, there's a lot of talk of automation and AI and the opportunities there, and I think some people are hoping that it's going to be a silver bullet, which means minimal effort, hit a button and maximum output, which obviously isn't the real world. Of the three, those strategy execution and automation is the one of those that the business owners themselves typically are more interested in. The beginning Is the one element that kind of is the hot button element, but then they're introduced to other pieces.

Clare: I think that the typical entry point a lot of business owners really want is they want the execution and they often will come into an agency example very typical for someone to just go into it and say, for example, a digital marketing agency, and say I want to get leads, I want a lead generation program.

And if that company has a very well detailed profile of who their ideal customer is and they can tell their story well, they can jump into execution and they'll start seeing results. However, if that company does not have a good sense of their ideal customer or they want to move, for example, open up a new market, then jumping into execution will always cost them money and it's not unusual for in that scenario for someone, that's $20,000 to $50,000 trying to figure out what's the best way to get these new leads in, as we're sort of trying to figure out our way forward. If they set a strategy in the beginning, if they set a blueprint we call it as opposed to a strategy because it really is a way to build your approach then that will that we can reduce that easily, cut it in half and maybe even reduce it to 25% of the iteration cost.

Stuart: Right, it really is ready. Aim fire is the ideal approach, rather than fire, hope, maybe, aim Right. I think it's so easy for people to get distracted by the kind of the above water piece of the iceberg, which is the add and the results, and miss the importance of the building blocks below. But the benefit is those building blocks are applicable in multiple different areas, so the extra value of doing that work first, which means all of the above water pieces are just going to be so much more effective it's exactly.

Yeah, it's difficult to sometimes wind people back a little bit just to do the building block work. That will just make it so much more effective. Working with a number of kind of on the visionary side of the equation rather than the implemented side of the equation, it is difficult to Okay we just need to take one step back before we run too far down this route. You were talking about the fractional, other fractional people that you work with, and I know that you were when we were talking about rolling out the framework to allow other consultants to use and licensing the system. That type of thing.

That's always something that's interesting and we did do a podcast last year sometime with someone who's dedicated in that licensing type space. It's always interesting hearing about it because we've worked with people on the franchise side of things, which is similar. How did you go from a business owner and then have an employees to thinking about licensing and out? What was that thought process around? Either the relinquishing I don't want to say relationship can control, but was it much of a step to move from just a regular model to more of a looking for other partners to work with?

Clare: When I started working on the book, which was about two years ago, it was published last October. So that was the point of the book was to prepare for the idea of licensing the system. So the first step was to provide the information about the system. In the book, smart marketing execution has the step by step details of the system, has examples of the tools. Tools are available to download on the website.

So the idea was that the book should be kind of that initial foundation and I think you do the same thing with your 90-minute books as well, stuart as you create that foundation for people who can then take it and move it to that next level, whether they license it or not or whether they simply use it with their own client base. I think it is that definitely that foundational step. And then the next step is to take what you've done that you're comfortable with and really and that's where we are now is really learn how to make it really effective for others to use. So that's our certification program that we're, like I say we're just in the beginning stages of is, with people learning it, so that we can continue to refine the approach and make sure that it's the best customer experience for both the consultant and for their clients.

Stuart: Such a fantastic opportunity to put more, more opportunity out in the world. The individual reach of any one person is kind of limited to their sphere of influence, no matter how effective they are at that to be able to share what's working with more clients through more providers. I think it's an opportunity that more businesses have got than perhaps they realize, and I get that it's not necessarily something that immediately springs to mind, but I think anyone with a framework, where that framework has got proven results, it's definitely an opportunity for more people to take on board that idea of licensing it out. It's almost like the strategic coach approach of the, the free zone frontier and the amplifying three partnerships rather than thinking about locking something down and restricting it, it's making it available within the constraints but as available as possible.

Clare: Absolutely Now. I would encourage anyone out there who has a even in, even in the beginning ideas of the framework sewer to contact you and to look at your 90 minute book process. Even if they end up not using it for anything more than themselves and their own clients as a way to do it, it will clarify their thinking, it will give them a tool, it will give them that next growth step in their business. So I think it's an ideal approach.

Stuart: Yeah, I appreciate it. Actually I was funny, I should say. They clarified the thing again. We recorded a podcast with someone a couple of weeks ago and that was one of their feedback as well. They were saying that actually this process having to explain to Christie who they were working with to create their book, having to explain to a level of detail that they hadn't necessarily had to explain before, because either they're talking with clients who don't need to know that level of detail they were happy just to. They were already clients, so they were happy just to move on with what the?

person was talking about, or they were talking to employees and perhaps there was the employees come with their own ideas, or there was some reluctance to kind of ask what might seem like basic or obvious questions because they were worried about seeming like they didn't know what they were talking about. So to have to go through and explain it, and it actually opened up a couple of other parts of the chapters and explaining things in ways that they just never articulated before. It was in here but it had never kind of come out in a way that was easy to understand and share with someone else.

Clare: Exactly.

Stuart: Brings us to this idea of how the books created. The frameworks and the explanations are there. You set the project up with the idea of it being the first step towards engaging other consultants and licensing and certifying people. How do you have now, or when you started, how was your approach to spreading the word and getting it out there? Did you have a particular use case in mind for using the book with groups of people or through or with other professional organizations?

Clare: I have. I do belong to several networking groups. I belong to Fractionals United, which is a LinkedIn or, excuse me, slack group, a large Slack group of Fractionals. I do belong to a couple of other groups. I do a fair amount of work on LinkedIn and connecting with people and I think, rather than thinking about it from the standpoint of, well, I want to get people into the program, I want to build relationships with people and find people for whom this program is really the best fit. So what we're really doing now is we're building relationships with people with whom this could be a good potential tool for them. Some people you know it's a wide spectrum out there Some people are just literally coming out of corporate or starting their marketing career and really need specific tools. Others are very experienced. They have some parts of the system, but not all. So they're using it to kind of supplement what they have and to build on what they have. So it's been kind of a wide range.

Stuart: That's actually those two groups. It's so interesting. And another benefit of frameworks is that a lot of times I think people's default is frameworks are good for people who are at the beginning of their journey because it lays out some step by step elements, which obviously is true. But I think the other benefit is for that group of people, as you described, is very experienced. They've got a lot of their own systems already. But looking at other people's frameworks, there's an opportunity to plug some gaps, if you notice some gaps, but also just structure it, because at that point in your journey you're bringing so much subconscious knowledge that when looking and assessing another framework, it just allows you to appreciate it at a whole other level and bring in some depth to the conversation rather than starting from scratch. So those two groups such a huge benefit for them.

Clare: The other thing, too, stuart, that I want to add is that it also helps consultants in particular who want to build, like seven figure practices scale, because when you are a fractional CMO, you can typically handle three to five clients, depending on what your work style is and what the client's requirements are. With a framework like this, you can bring in a junior partner or a junior employee and teach them the framework, teach them the system, and they can then employ that system and help you scale your practice to that next level.

Stuart: Such a great point, and whether that's them taking on their own clients and running them end to end through the whole system, or whether you break it down so that they're specializing in certain elements of the framework itself, it really frees up the value and the effort into something a lot more systematized and manageable, rather than just saying go out there and hope for the best.

Clare: Exactly, exactly and again, because it's rinse and repeat, it also gets to the point where you can get into a rhythm with your clients, where you know and this is another issue that happens a lot of times with consultants is how long is this going to take? How is the client going to respond? Are we going to have stops and holdups in our process? This does definitely reduce those kind of hiccups in the process. The client is again because clients more engaged, they tend not to have those times where they have to step away. Anything can happen in the world and we know that People have lives and families and things do change. But we've found that this does reduce that interrupt to the process, to the work that we're doing with them.

Stuart: Which, again, going into it, anyone who's experienced on this side of the working model with clients this way I'm sure it's not going to be news to those, but certainly people who entering into this world, perhaps out of the corporate space and again where we are recording now, the work environment is a lot different than it's been over the last couple of years and there are probably more people now coming into the world of trying to do something for themselves because they've been let go. So, going into that, coming out of the corporate world, you kind of expect that the challenge in the hold-ups would be from your side yourself, maybe not having the best working practices or over-committing and things happening. But the reality is that a lot of those delays and you'll be waiting a lot for clients and no for us in the book business and even on the podcast business as well. It's surprising how much we try to minimize the client deliverables, but it's surprising how much you have to wait for those. So I think, to be able to give the clients a framework and an expectation and allow them to plan out where their pieces of the puzzle fall in it's again.

It's just why I love frameworks so much, because it just clarifies the picture for everyone and makes it so much more achievable and attainable. Absolutely, time goes fast on these podcasts all the time. I want to make sure that people have got an opportunity to follow along with what you guys are doing, and of the audience. There's going to be a mix, I think, of people who are interested in the framework to implement it themselves and then clients who might be looking for someone to implement it for them. So where's a good place for people to find out more about the organization and what you're doing?

Clare: So let me just real quickly share the audience copy of the book. Can you see this okay.

Stuart: It's Zoom background is making it disappear a little bit.

Clare: Oh, okay.

Stuart: In the show notes. I'll make sure that I put a copy of the cover just so they can.

Clare: Okay, and yes, I encourage anybody who's interested. They can go to our website that's octaingrowth.com. We have a special offer, for your listeners. They can go to octaingrowth.com/myoffer and download a copy of the first chapter of the book, as well as sign up for to spend some time with me for any marketing question or conversation they'd like to have.

Stuart: That's fantastic. I'll make sure that we put links to those in the show notes and on the website. So if people are listening on the podcast play, just scroll across the show notes or on the website there'll be a link directly to it. As I say, I'm a huge fan of frameworks. I particularly like this one because of the structure as it moves from the three elements, because no matter where your jumping off point is, it gives you something to dive into. So really recommend that people go and get that copy of the chapter and then get the copy of the book I mean, that's the next step and then reach out to you. I think as well.

If people have got the framework questions about the program, it's jumping on a call. I've had this experience myself this year maybe more than in the past, but jumping on a quick call to talk with people is so much more effective than trying to do it by email or text. It's the years I kind of vid moved away from speaking with people. It was strange though it sounds, but really in the last 12 months it's been a huge difference maker. Is there anything that we've? I'm always conscious of talking with people who I know less than our typical authors. Is there anything that we skipped over or didn't cover so far? That would be. I want to miss anything.

Clare: I don't think so. I think this was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and really the way that you explore all the different opportunities. And again, I just really want to reiterate and underline that I do think your process with your 90-minute books is a new trend in marketing and I would encourage people to take advantage of it.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, I appreciate it. Likewise, I appreciate your time as well. It's always fun having a conversation with someone and then being able to dive a little bit deeper and share it with the audience. So we'll make sure we've got this out in the next. I think the week after we record this we'll be going live. As I say, we'll make sure that there's links to to the offer page, so people should definitely follow along with that, and it'll be interesting to circle back in a few months down the track and get that kind of input on how the certification the beta groups going through at the moment, but how people are receiving it and taking that framework, I welcome the opportunity to talk with you anytime, stuart.

Clare: I really appreciate again your time and this engaging, wonderful conversation.

Stuart: Fantastic. Well, everyone thanks for listening and watching along. As I say, check out the notes and follow Clare. We'll put Clare's link data address in there as well, so follow Clare there. As always, let us know if you're thinking about writing a book yourself. If you've got any questions about the process, just reach out to us at support at 90-minute books or me directly at Stuart at 90-minute books, and we'll be happy to help. So, Clare, thanks again for your time. Everyone thanks for listening and we'll catch you in the next one.